Follow up to my Paypal purchase of 4 - 10 oz Stackers

**Directed to SoDude's previous reply since i forgot to hit the reply icon.

It is skirting ebay to make a transaction, not all that different, but since i have overwhelmingly proven my side of the argument, that is of course an appropriate response from you.

Just like saying I was making up stories when I said I called and emailed vendors and you twisting it around to seem like it was all one transaction to detract from my credibility, when in actuality i have done both. You are just changing the focus of the topic instead of addressing the issue. The issue was that you called SCFY out for making a deal outside of ebay, even though he didnt explicitly say until later how he contacted the seller. I am saying that if you cant prove how we contacted the seller, then you have no grievance. NONE. Especially since my evidence provides many instances of where this is a COMMON occurrence and is tolerated by ebay themselves by not enforcing their own rules and removing these vendors and sellers.

Defend your position, I am defending mine.

Tell me again how myself or SCFY are unethical cheaters who hurt big bad ebay and are bad people for saving ourselves some money because we are slightly clever in situations like this. I especially have done nothing wrong, and yet i have been accused of being a bad person (cheater, or what ever other name people have used) for making transactions outside of ebay.

Im sorry, I just dont see where I have done anything wrong at this point. And without SCFY admitting that he used the ebay messaging system (which he didnt do until this thread) there was no reason for you and the others to gang up on him like that. For all you guys knew he found their email through ebay as well, ive even had sellers direct me to their store pages that actually provided their real email addresses, and that was within the last 6 months, so that is just as plausible too.

Shall I back that up for you with evidence too? I think my position and credibility are solidified at this point since I have provided a back-up to EVERYTHING i have written short of showing you guys my email and phone records proving I made the calls and wrote the emails.

 

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I wasnt out to prove that buying from APMEX on their site was cheaper than ebay. I was just providing examples of all the various sellers and businesses that break ebays rules every single day, 2 of which are high profile sellers in the industry, and give out plenty of information to contact them outside of ebay which is what ebays rules EXPLICITLY prohibit.

Ebays rules dont say that we are gonna save money by buying through them or the sellers own site, what their rules say and is the topic of this discussion is that no information can be provided by the seller that directs a potential buyer to their own websites, stores, or contact information.

Ive just proven that ebay doesnt care about their rules, so why do you?!?

 

Apmex has a business account with Ebay and they agree to different terms. They aren't violating any rules, and neither is Ebay violating its own rules. Try again, but next time don't try to sneak a comparison of apples and oranges over on us.

 

Because others break the rules (assuming that they are) give you a reason to do so? Just loverly.

BTW;

Description or store home are NOT excluded from including contact info.

 

Oh and heres another seller who has his email plastered on ebay, again still active and stil selling.

http://stores.ebay.com/Type-Coin-Company/Contact-Information.html

So, what if SCFY contacted that person via email? Its EBAYS job to ensure the listing isnt there if this was such a huge problem for them. Yet they allow all of this information on many listings, so I just dont see where if i get this information that i am obligated not to reach out to that person. Shoot, they may have another coin that isnt even listed and i could purchase that one, thats what I mean by you cant just make accusations without addressing ebays role in all of this.

Ebay is the source of the problem and I have provided enough information showing that side of all of this.

 

Then by your very own statement, there are NO RULES being broken if I contact this person since ebay allows it. So why is everyone upset that I make a transaction outside of ebay if I find the necessary information to make said deal from ebay itself?

So im not even breaking a rule at all then and i dont appreciate your first statement in your response. I only break the rules that I deem are ridiculous and beyond reasonable common sense. If you want to discuss rule breaking in general you should probably realize that we are ALL guilty of breaking somebodies rule almost daily. Whether it be tax law, or ebays rule, or criminal laws, or statutes, or proclamations, etc. We all break some sort of rule each and everyday, so I dont think anyone can claim the moral high ground, especially when laws/rules are so ridiculous sometimes that you dont have much choice but to break them to still live.

What I have done hurts nobody, and again by ebays own rules, nothing I have participated in was wrong on ANY level.....according to ebays own words that is

 

Address all of my other sellers then, well RLM Cents did it for me since he quoted ebay directly and it shows that sellers ARE allowed to post all of this contact info as long as its not in 3-4 specific locations.

So I have done NO wrong doing, care to admit that yet?

 

Your entire argument has alreay been refuted with this one rule of Ebay's-

It doesn't matter what information you acquire, if you acquire that information via dealing with Ebay, you can't use it to contact another person about dealing off of Ebay.

 

I honestly don't even know what you did. It's different from the original topic. I'm sure of that.

I'm pretty sure you did something wrong. You seem shady. And you keep demanding to be told you did nothing wrong. Sorry, my instincts tell me there is something dark and sinister going on.

 

They are the ones burdened with proving how I garnered that information, not me. And thats my point. They have to find a transaction that did NOT occur through their network (good luck, since i didnt use their system and thus left no evidence). Somehow PROVE that i obtained information off of their site and only their site, and then prosecute me for jumping around them when they allow the information to be posted in the first place.

You know what that amounts to? A snowballs chance in Hades is what.

And heres why, a judge cannot block my free will to pick up a phone and place a call when the number is listed in any phonebook across the nation, and just so happens to be posted on ebay as well. Its PUBLIC DOMAIN, and as such ebay would have to explicitly ban sellers from providing that information to get around it. They do not even have such a rule, therefore, again, no wrong doing has occurred. Like i said before if ebay was THAT concerned about it, surely they could update their T&C, correct?

Thats what any sensible business would do if they were hemorrhaging money, close the loop-holes. Alas, they have yet to do so. (of course I dont think they are losing any money either)

Do you know how ridiculous your argument sounds to point out that I cant use a phone number that ebay has allowed on THEIR OWN SITE, to make contact with a seller. Pretty ridiculous if you ask me.

 

They would have to prove I got the info from ebay, and they cant do that if I simply google the name of the store/user id and cross reference the town. Lots of ebay sellers operate B&M stores, its not rocket science to figure them out sometimes.

I mean should I not take the business info from ebay and try to run other searches, like BBB searches to make sure they are accredited or have complaints but are running a 'good' ebay store? Its my right as a consumer to investigate any business entity i wish to spend my money with. Too bad if I come across info that saves me as a consumer money, and this is yet another way it could be done in a legit manner.

I am not obligated to use ebay to make a purchase, I can browse as a guest without signing any T&C and still find all of this info. What then?

Another nail in that coffin, because ebay provides free browsing the very first time you open their page. You only 'sign' T&C when you open an account. I could close my account today and still use ebay to find this information if i wanted to and conduct plenty of coin transactions without them.

So now what? Where would your argument stand then? There wouldnt be one because there wouldnt be any 'agreements'

 

You're right. They may not be able to prove a thing. If you find Ebay's terms so ridiculous, the solution is simple. Do not agree to them and do not use Ebay.

The best indicator of a person's character is how they conduct themselves when they think no one is watching.

 

Ill rewrite it real quick.

I found a sellers Business name, phone number and address and called them up to make a trade on some coins. I didnt want to purchase it outright, but had some coins to make the deal with. We talked, I shipped, he received, and then my coin arrived. Ebay listing came down (followed by about 10 new ones from the coins i just traded him)

Second example was that I seen a coin on ebay, didnt have the money for it, but was interested. Seen a poster come along CT with the same userID. Found out it was the same dealer, PMed through CT to arrange a lay-a-way type plan, and now im just waiting on my coin to arrive.

Both coins were located through the ebay system. One I used the listing info to make the deal on (the call), the other I just put 2 + 2 together and needed to use a lay-a-way option which ebay DOES NOT provide.

I am simply asking to be shown where either of those 2 situations were out of line. I am making a big deal out of it, because these are legal ways that one might need to conduct business around ebay and I am showing that not every user has nefarious intentions in doing so.

In fact from a saving money stand point I did neither on both transactions because of the special circumstances surrounding each.

Does that clarify it better?

The reason I stood up for SCFY was because until today no one knew exactly how he contacted his seller, and with me going the routes that I did, i was making the point that yes you can go around ebay in completely legal ways to do a little business. It doesnt hurt ebay that bad, especially when we as buyers continually use ebay and intend to do so. It would be crazy for them to ban a user like myself when I spend thousands of dollars a year through them when all i did was look for an alternate way to expand my collection when money wasnt always my number one choice of payment.

I am actually not that shady at all, i always try to give people fair deals on my coins im selling and throw in little extras. I work hard everyday, treat my customers right, and love my family. Not a bad person at all, but I also realize I am no saint either

 

Ebay doesnt make the distinction that you cant use their service without being a member. In fact if they did, they wouldnt allow guest browsing now would they. Its public domain, and you could only be prosecuted IF they were able to prove all i said before, and now adding the caveat that you were also a member at the time since you can freely browse without signing up.

I can literally have never even heard of ebay and find several of these pages as a guest user and make a deal if i wish not having signed their contract at all.

Now you can probably see why they dont bother wasting their time on these issues. Cost ratios would be crazy to enforce on something like this. Plus as ive said, even if they did care that much about it, they wouldnt be willing to jeopardize future transactions from me that does result in them making money especially when ive made 1000+ purchases over the last 10-12 years. Maybe 50 have I found it necessary to skirt ebay in one way or another. That leaves 950 transactions that they have made plenty of money from on my behalf. I think they would let it alone.

 

I think that is legit. The policies for buyers says nothing about trades.

Also legit. You did not obtain the contact info through ebay.

What you did and what SCFY did are very different.[/quote]

Now stop bashing ebay for things that are not even in their T&Cs in the first place.

 

[/quote][/quote]
I realize it is a different scenario. But until today we had no concrete evidence suggesting that and I was attempting to show that you don't always have to click the BIN or have the winning bid to obtain a coin in a legitimate manner from eBay. That was all.

Thank you for finally agreeing that what I did was not wrong as I think it's just smart business and enhances my collection. I know it's a risk to do business outside of eBay but that's MY risk to take and it's a calculated risk when I utilize these venues.

 

Bottom line, did the two parties find each other by using Ebay? If so, Ebay earned its fee. If the two parties intentionally go around Ebay to conduct the transaction, they are both guilty of theft. They both agreed to the terms of service, so both agreed to be bound by these rules. Don't like it? Use another source to find sellers.

It really is the bottom line. You can talk yourself out of it, convince yourself copying software or music "should be legal, I am not hurting anyone", or any number of things in life. Not wishing to part with money is a powerful motivator to convince yourself what you did what not wrong. There are tons of thieves, both in jail and out, who in their minds firmly believe what they did was not wrong, "because I needed the money", or "they were rich so could afford it", or any other delusional excuse they think up so as not to be troubled with their life choices.

It doesn't make it right. Unless the facts in the first paragraph are wrong, I simply am uninterested in any other argument you can make. Black and white, its theft. No grey area. Might as well as walked up to an Ebay shareholder and put a gun in their face demanding $80. Same thing.

 

treylxapi47, if you seen (my word would be saw, but ....) an item on eBay and in any way bought it from the dealer, you BOTH broke eBay's rules. If you contacted a dealer about something you did NOT see on eBay, that is perfectly acceptable. If you buy anything from a dealer and it is or was listed on eBay, it would be technically OK provided you did not seen [saw] it on eBay, but it would be difficult for you to prove such being a member on eBay.

Your situation is further complicated when dealing with bullion. A coin is unique (although raw coin may be hard to prove) particularly slabbed coins. Most bullion is made not to be unique. I must admit I do not know how courts would rule when the item is $10 face silver coin, or roll silver eagles, or such.

 

I would agree. I have relationships with dealers that may have started on Ebay, (heck at one time CNG was on Ebay, I cannot remember if that is where I heard of them or not), but I only buy from them off Ebay items I see off Ebay. Nothing wrong with that at all.

If the original post said "I saw this dealer carried types of product I like, and found his website and bought from him", ok, nothing wrong with that. Its the fact you bought the specific items listed on Ebay without allowing Ebay to get their earned sellers fee. That is what crosses the line.

 

There is a huge difference between pointing a gun at somebody and demanding money and just not going through eBay. One difference would be assault with a deadly weapon or communicating threats. I engaged in neither of those acts so to accuse me of such is ridiculous.

How do you address the fact that i can be a guest of Ebays and have never signed their agreement yet obtained the same information?

It is open to the public so I don't think they 'own' the rights of a sellers item, just the right for us to conduct business thru their site.

Either way I will continue as I have done in the past until eBay stops me. If they see a problem then it's up to them to enforce the action not any one of us.