The Collapse of NORFED premiums on eBay

i may be wrong,but if the gov has given it the boot and it is not a real coin then since there are plenty of other options i don't understand why people would bother with them.they are priced to high in my opinion on that seller's store.

 

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Exactly. The law says it's illegal. That was determined by the jury's interpretation of US Title Code, as stated in the post just before the one you quoted in this very thread. The FBI agent merely gave his opinion that it would be legal to own if you only intended to collect it, and never sold it to anyone who potentially would sell it to someone who might use it in a counterfeit manner.

In any case, the FBI builds the case for the Federal government to prosecute on. If they think it's legal/illegal, the consequences are essentially the same as it being legal/illegal. The FBI doesn't write the law, but the FBI's opinion is essential is enforcing Federal laws.

 

The Jury in Statesville did not determine this and your legal theory is faulty. IMO because there is no legal statute against owning these coins. - And none has been produced in this topic even though it's been requested several times.

The point being made in this topic is the Norfed coins will fall in value because it's illegal to own them. This was based on the business decision that eBay made to remove the coin from their site because the Secret Service "requested" they do so. This isn't legal precedent. Ebay could have just as easily said no and gone to court for a ruling on the matter.

Furthermore, about 2 weeks ago, CoinWorld put out a release on the matter. First of all CoinWorld does not know if possession is illegal. i.e. They don't know of a legal statute. Even more important, they have made a formal request to the US Secret Service and the US Attorney's office for an official statement on the matter. They asked,

• Are the pieces legal to own, sell, distribute or even exhibit for educational purposes at a coin show or other venue?
• Will federal law enforcement authorities seek to seize any of the tens of thousands of Liberty Dollars still in private hands?

http://www.coinworld.com/articles/liberty-dollars-ban-goes-into-effect-at-ebay/

They have yet to receive a response.

--------------------------------------

So I reject the entire point of this topic that Norfed coins will fall to junk status because the government is somehow going to seize all of them and they will be melted down. It has not been established there is any legal authority for them to do so or that the law enforcement agencies are even interested in going there.

 

Scream "illegal" all you want, no one will believe you until you show us the law.

 

Fatima, are you the only one who didn't notice that I provided the specific sections of the US Code that make possession of counterfeit coins illegal? If you knowingly possess counterfeit coins with the intent to redistribute them, you're in violation of the law. Unless you plan on keeping the coins forever and selling them below face (the only way you can legally claim that it's not being sold as tender), then you are in violation of the law. The reason no one answers your questions when you ask for statutes is you ignore the posts of which statutes are applicable.

BTW, what jurisdiction (state/county) are you in, so I can waste my time and find the laws that specifically apply to you?

 

I find it curiously ironic that you question the authority of the Secret Service (a division of the US Treasury Department) and the FBI, yet you claim Coinworld has full legal understanding of the statutes applicable to ownership. CW simply said that they cannot definitively say one way or the other: ergo, they're not in the business of interpretation of the jurisprudence applicable to the situation. The Treasury Department (via the Secret Service) has placed requests to limit the sale of the items. That would be indicative of their status as to their legality. I don't see the US Treasury requesting eBay to stop the sale of coins marked "COPY" or the such.

As to the premise of this thread... I never said that the items would fall to junk status, JB did. My point was more that one could legally justify only selling the items for their intrinsic (not face) value. Additionally, the Treasury could always decide to make them illegal to possess at a later date. That _is_ within their discretionary authority, since they control the money supply.

 

Wrong. The correct verbage is intent to defraud. The mere possession of counterfeit coins is legal, as is the sale of same (as long there is no intent to defraud by selling them as genuine).

 

Until the above questions are answered by the government I will carry on as normal. The only thing that has changed in my world is ebay will remove all sales. Obviously nobody on this forum has too many Norfeds that they're worried about it so all you naysayers can go fly a kite. :T$:

 

You did not correctly cite the law that you referenced. You cited Title 18, Chapter 25, Subsection 473, & 489 of the US Title Code.

It clearly states that in order for either statute to apply there is a condition (copied from the very statute)

• with intent to defraud, falsely makes, alters, forges, or counterfeit

Therefore it would not apply to a collector holding the coin. It would not apply to a collector selling the coin to someone else if they did not intend fraud. In regards to where I live, it's about 40 miles from where the Norfed trial was held. It doesn't matter however. You don't seem to be able to read the statutes correctly anyway.

 

Well, there were a few members awhile back who had quite a few:

http://www.cointalk.com/t117995/

 

I have not questioned their authority one time in this topic so this is a fallacious argument. I HAVE asked you to provide a legal statute that clearly states it is illegal to possess a Norfed coin. So far you have not.

 

South Carolina law:

39-15-1190(B)(1)(a)(iv)

And on a not really related (though funny) point:

http://www.coinworld.com/articles/liberty-dollars-may-be-subject-to-seizure/

 

The last person I trust to know the law is the person charged with enforcing it.

 

The Norfed trail was held in North Carolina. That is actually a different state.

 

Back to the thread: I have not noticed the NORFED premiums dropping. The cheapest ones I have seen are almost double spot, and the rarities are crazy money.

 

Juan Blanco;

After reading this post through, I feel you certainly have a very abrasive way with words.

 

Come and get me coppers!!

 

VERY old news.
>'Liberty Dollars' Can Buy Users A Prison Term, U.S. Mint Warns< http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/09/AR2006100900993.html

That's exactly why no reputable coin dealers are openly/knowingly selling Norfeds now. Not APMEX, not MONEX, not Provident Metals, not Bullion Direct, not Gainsville Coins, not Texas Precious Metals, not Silvertowne ... not even slippery Tulving LOL (though Hansie had his own Federal conviction for fraud charges; presume he learned this lesson already.)

That's reality folks - ignore the 'make-believe' nonsense & lies. Norfed Dollars are basically black market contraband now.

Can anyone post a reputable coin dealer still selling Norfeds? Anyone, please? Not even one 'didn't-get-them-memo' geriatric dupe?

I didn't think so.

 

South Carolina, Virginia and North Carolina are all within 40 miles of Statesville, from what I can tell on Google.

 

Sorry folks. By the responses on this thread, we're well into the 'Anxiety' Stage and moving through 'Denial' pretty quickly.
And I do hope no else gets rooked buying this overpriced scrap (aka Norfed rounds) now and going forward.




Here's Ty Warner:


and here's Bernard Notthouse:




Which is worth more - Nuthouse Paper or Ty plushies? LOL Same, same: really!