Is anybody still buying silver and gold?

thanks. I like maples vs 1 ounce bars myself.

 

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My advise to people to stay away from bars and other silver products that are unique and unusual mainly because they're difficult to determine authenticity. For instance, a ASE has very exacting dimensions so along with determining mass you can also quickly determine dimensions and thus if a coin has those exact dimensions AND the proper mass, then it must be made of silver since only silver in those exact dimensions will have that exact mass. Bars, on the other hand, have only mass that can be accurately measured as each bar maker will use different dimensions. Imagine if silver were to go as high as $100 or $200 an oz, I guarantee you'll be reading in the local newspapers about fake silver bars and as a result bars and non-US silver coins will sell at a discount relative to ASE's. In fact, I think the premium on ASE's would become much larger simply due to the easy of verification. However, you could argue that at $150 an oz you'll be so far in the black that a little discount wouldn't hurt and I would have to agree with you. But nevertheless, I would consider sticking with mainstream silver products that will be easily verified on the off chance that silver goes thru the roof.

 

oh stop it. so they cut up one of your sunshine bars or whatever.

 

Um, okay. To each his own. Good luck!

 

gulp. yeah I'll need it with these pesky silver bars.

 

+1

This is another reason why I keep all my receipts. Of course some of them are chicken scratch, but for large purchases with an established mint it should suffice.

 

using your logic, if they were going to counterfeit anything, it would be ASE's.

 

Nope, sorry, your logic is faulty because the only material in the universe that will have the exact dimensions as an ASE AND will weight out at 1 troy oz would have to be made of silver, so the best a counterfeiter could do is cash in on the premium, not much incentive there, especially after to take into account the expenses of preparing dies and punching out the planchets, etc. However, to fake non-standard silver bullion would be much more lucrative because all you have to do is make it weigh 1 troy oz. Any material can be made to weigh out at an oz, no material other than silver can weight out AND maintain the same dimensions of an ASE.
The bottom line is this - ASE's come with a premium for a very good reason and since you get that premium back when you sell them, there's no reason to buy anything else. In my book the ASE's are the best and most prudent vehicle for speculating in physical silver. Bars and rounds are far more prone to counterfeiting and in the long run represent a greater risk than do ASE's.

 

I'm not seeing this. It's certainly true for gold -- the only non-precious metal that's close to gold in density is tungsten, and that's so hard to work that it's unlikely to turn up in coins. Lead's denser than silver, and can be alloyed with a host of lighter metals to match exactly for density. It won't have the conductivity or the ring, but nobody's likely to carry a conductivity meter sensitive enough to detect the difference, and dropping valuable coins on a hard surface is generally frowned upon.

 

they've already counterfeited morgans. why would they counterfeit a 5 oz monarch precious metals bar instead of an ASE?

 

It's a law of physics that each element will have a specific mass that is dependent upon volume. This applies to everything, not just gold. So if you know the volume (ie - dimensions) and you know the weight (mass) you will know what the item is composed of. That said, anything other than silver, such as an alloy of lead, would fool only the blind or the very very new to coins. No one will ever confuse it with actual silver.

 

Easy, I can use a material that cost 5 cents an oz and turn it into something worth $32 an oz. That's a great return on investment in my book!

 

Molybdenum is the equivalent faux silver as tungsten is for gold. The other thing that can be done which I learned in a thread around here somewhere is that a lead/copper mix can be used to emulate the density of silver, though I'm not sure how this impacts the dimensions of the coin. In any case, 1 oz numismatic bullion is probably the least likely to be counterfeited, at least as compared to bars or junk silver which is widely recognized. I would think ASE's and Maple Leaves are probably more likely to be counterfeited than any of the Perth Mint series since those change all the time, and any counterfeiting effort would be more effective with something that has a wider market base.

 

I do not believe it will turn out this way so I guess we'll just have to wait and see. I've stated my rational for my beliefs along with scenarios which would cause this to happen but who knows. We both may be totally wrong.

 

Well just because I think ASE's and Maples are more likely than Perth doesn't mean I think they are likely. For one, 1 oz coins are so small that any real silver layered around the fake stuff would be too thin to be foolproof, and the detailed designs are hard to fake as well. I put a substantially greater risk on generic bars of larger size.

 

so why not counterfeit an eagle?? look at how intricate a sunshine mint bar is.

 

so you could apply that logic to one ounce or smaller bars or rounds.

 

No argument against this beautiful bar, but if you've ever seen a 100 or 1000 oz bar that's a different story.

 

Well, think of the expense needed to fake either an ASE or a Maple. You have to very skillfully prepare the dies, you have to have a press AND you have to put the ribbing on the outside of the coin, all very difficult and not easy to fake. Contrast that with a silver bar, you only a rectangle mold for bars and some funky stamp. All very inexpensive and easy to duplicate and the reason I wouldn't touch a silver bar. But others love them and all I've gotta say is "good luck"!

 

good discussion, thanks for the input