Something about taking possession of your gold..

You don't know how it was done.

The point,in the context of this topic, is the system is no longer working as it is supposed to and taking possession becomes even more important. MF Global was a Federal Reserve primary dealer and an authorized agent for the CME. Yet they stole assets from the Comex, bet them, and lost it all. There was apparently no regulation, no auditing, and at the time I type this, no indictments handed down to the well connected executives running the thing.

i.e. If you don't possess it, then you don't own it. Promises on paper are worth about as much as the ink used to write it.

 

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I don't know how to respond to a statement that stupid. MF Global didn't rob the Comex warehouse. They used assets in their custody that belonged to customers. We know for certain that people who held warehouse receipts instead of MF Global holding them were not part of the scam.

 

I did mention price in my other post, but the reason I don't think it's relevant is because precious metals are the measure of value of currency. Originally paper dollars were priced in ounces of gold. If anything I would use metals pricing to determine sentiment on the dollar. Now if replacement cost increases have not risen as much as price increases, or if cost of production is lower in relation to the price per oz, then I would say yes, it's not as bullish in that regard now as it was then. I don't have that data, however due to epithermal deposition (silver deposits primarily existing at the surface of the Earth's crust due to the melting point of the metal while the planet was being formed, and thus mines having to go deeper to get less over time) the production cost of silver should only go up when measured in cost per oz mined / spot price per oz (until such time as the physical market determines the price). It may go down in dollars, but I don't see it going down faster than the price of the metal. As for gold, that's not as relevant since epithermal deposition is unique to silver.

 

Son, no gold ever left that warehouse. You completely don't get what has happened.

 

I understand that point of view, but I don't think it's useful.

1) The values of metals fluctuate widely relative to one another. This means "metals pricing" is not meaningful as a yardstick. You've got to pick one metal, or some arbitrary weighted average of prices.

2) The value of any given metal fluctuates widely relative to the stuff you need to buy. Over the last three years, gold has more than doubled, and silver has more than tripled. Grocery prices have increased, but by much less -- low double-digits. Durable goods, same story.

Sure, in general, dollars are worth less with the passage of time. But that was true even when the dollar was backed by gold and silver.

 

The concept isn't the same. The definition of a dollar was nothing more than an convenient assay and measure of a given quantity of gold or silver. Specifically, in 1792, the $ was defined as a number of grains of silver, then gold was defined as a ratio of that. People performed trade in measures of PM and it didn't matter if it was denominated or not. What the $ did provide was proof that your coin contained an exact measure of the substance as assayed and coined by the federal government. i.e. it was safe to use.

While this definition held, and except during times when the governments issued paper (mainly during times of war) the value of the money remained approximately the same for 130 years. i.e. there was almost no inflation.

 

Look kid, if your reading comprehension skills were better, you would realize that the question I was responding to had nothing to do with MF Global. It has to do with the safety of holding a Comex warehouse receipt. So it is you who do not get it.

 

The situation at MF Global proved your statement to be wrong.

 

Nobody who had a Comex warehouse receipt at home or in a safe deposit box was impacted byt MF Global because of it. You are completely wrong beyond recovery. Give it up.

 

Metals aren't the only thing that have fluctuated wildly in the last couple years. Just look at cotton or sugar. However, as is often repeated, an oz of gold bought a nice toga in ancient Rome, and it will still buy you a nice suit today. Actually today you could get a few suits for that price since not as many people are buying suits these days. My point being that my point of view is based upon long term trends. 3 years is far too short a time frame to discern a trend that goes back throughout the course of human history.

Also when I say metals I mean gold and silver. They are the only monetary metals as according to the US Constitution as well as recent human history. There's always the copper penny, but a metal being used for coin isn't the same as a monetary metal by which I mean a metal in which a monetary standard can be pegged to. I don't expect the PGM group metals to track gold and silver, because they are not typically monetary metals (though they could be), but gold and silver have tracked very closely to each other over the current bull market.

 

Oh so you are in a position to give assurances which the CME hasn't done? A bankruptcy judge has placed court holds on unencumbered physical gold and silver and the CME hasn't, apparently, given any assurances. If an affected party has a legitimate claim, then they are going to have to wait and have that claims heard in the court. They are now a creditor and its up to a judge to decide who gets it first.

In regards to this topic, it points out that paper promises for gold and silver are just that, promises. It doesn't matter if it is a title to a gold bar or not. If you think I am "beyond recovery", then as I have told you before, put me on ignore.

 

You don't understand the discussion that was taking place, and the best thing you can do is drop out of the conversation. A warehouse receipt in the hands of a person is not part of the bankruptcy and cannot be touched by the judge. The person with the receipt isn't a creditor, they are an asset owner. You don't seem to get it that the question I was responding to has nothing to do with MF Global. The fact that you can't distinguish by assets held in accounts with MF Global and assets held by an individual investor demonstrates once again that your advice is useless. The only people with a problem are the ones with accounts at MF Global, and not the people who take physical possession.

 

You are simply repeating yourself. People with warehouse receipts have had their PMs seized. Your only response is they shouldn't have given those receipts to MF Global to handle. Yet this is an "assumption" that you have created to validate the incorrect point you have made. You have no proof of this is how it went down. Insults have no bearing on this though I realize that you frequently take this approach to dealing with a topic on this forum.

In the context of this topic, which you are ignoring, it's an example of why people can't trust those that you claim we should trust. The system can't be counted on now and you can't offer up any more guarantees there isn't more risk such as this. In the context of this topic, which you haven't addressed at all, taking physical control over a PM is always going to be safer than trusting someone else. The 1000s of customers of MF Global have found this out the hard way including those who thought they had segregated gold and silver with receipts at the CME. Your assurances that gold deposited in one of these warehouses is meaningless.

 

I was hoping that repetition would help you understand, but you are beyond help. This has nothing to do with MF Global. The question I answered was whether I would ever agree to own paper PMs, and I responded only if it was a Comex warehouse receipt in my possession. The rest is just your twisting of facts, as you always try to do.

 

Except you were responding to the discussion of MF Global and the Comex in regards to this topic. I will agree with you that you did respond based on the extend of your knowledge. As for the rest that you posted, that your gold and silver are perfectly safe at the Comex, this is an opinion.

 

You are correct that this is my opinion, backed by the Comex track record which is better than keeping PMs at home or in SDBs. My response was to take possession of the warehouse receipt and not leave it with the broker [MF Global or other].

 

This just in. Two intellectuals square off in a dual. Who wins? The guy below.

[video=youtube;Hv1ihFI5iKI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hv1ihFI5iKI[/video]