$15 Trillion in 5 Days

Regarding 1, yes.
Regarding 2, you can buy treasuries with treasuries. If you have a brokerage account with 5 year Treasury Notes and want to exchange them for 3 month Treasury Bills, the broker will do this. Neither you nor the broker will ever see or use an FRN in this transaction, and nobody will notify the Fed. The broker will most likely post the transaction as a sale for "cash" and a purchase for "cash" on your statement, but the "cash" is usually a money market fund that also holds treasuries and corporate securities, and not an FRN.

When you think about it, FRNs and coinage are used less and less as people have direct deposit for paychecks and pay bills online or with debit and credit cards. You can get along rather well without ever using FRNs these days, but you are still using US dollars in electronic form.

 

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It's exactly the same currency. There is only one USD. Unless you can produce some proof there is more than one type of USD currently in circulation, you are only expressing an opinion, and an incorrect one at that.

Your continued insults are irrelevant.

 

Posted above. It's via the Federal Reserve Fedwire system using Federal Reserve dollars. Fedwire only processes FRNs. All of the primary dealers are either Federal Reserve banks or foriegn banks with direct access to the Federal Reserve. It's the Federal Reserve that holds the auctions.

Your contention, like all the rest here, is simply incorrect. .

 

This has been done above multiple times by multiple posters. Some folks get it, some never will.

 

A wire is not an FRN, but it is still a dollar. That's the point.

 

Nope. It's been opinion. On the other hand, directly on the homepage of the New York Federal Reserve. (no surprise you can't produce something)

Almost all U.S. currency now consists of Federal Reserve notes,​

 

And everyone has told you this since the start. FRNs are the currency, but do not represent all of the dollars that are part of the money supply.

 

FRNs represent almost 100% of it. Provide some proof if you are so sure of it.

BTW, it's the Federal Reserve that controls money supply. LOL Maybe you didn't realize this is one of the aspects of "monetary policy", which the Fed has complete control over.

 

From the NY Fed website:

"The money supply measures reflect the different degrees of liquidity—or spendability—that different types of money have. The narrowest measure, M1, is restricted to the most liquid forms of money; it consists of currency in the hands of the public; travelers checks; demand deposits, and other deposits against which checks can be written. M2 includes M1, plus savings accounts, time deposits of under $100,000, and balances in retail money market mutual funds. "

So the Fed includes money market funds that consist of short term Treasuries and corporates as part of "the most liquid forms of money" they publish. Currency [i.e., FRNs] is only a small part of their measure of what is money.

Yet, I'm sure you still won't get it or admit you are wrong.

 

I don't really see any fundamental difference between FRNs and the digital dollars in my bank account. They are identical in every way except that one is paper and one is data in cyberspace. They are both notes of debt from the Federal Reserve. They both depreciate identically. They are both accepted as forms of payment for merchants. It's just that FRN has been used to distinguish the paper dollars, but I see no reason to preclude it from distinguishing the dollars in my bank account. It seems like the assumption is that because paper dollars are called FRNs that digital dollars cannot be, but I don't grasp why this has to be the case. Maybe there's a reason I am unaware of, but I haven't seen one proposed as of yet. There may be other monetary vehicles that make up the money supply, but those aren't what I deposited into my bank.

 

Hahaha. Earlier you said:

i.e. you contended that securities sold by the Treasury were not part of the Federal Reserve system since the Treasury sold directly to the public. Now you are arguing that "short term Treasuries" and "corporates" are a component of the Federal Reserve's money supply. LOL, you can't have it both ways.

Forgetting that you were completely wrong about who holds the auction, the M1 & M2 definition does not include the items that you state that it does. Sorry, you did not provide any proof.

 

An interesting question to ask, is how do you characterize money access by a check? Is it digital currency? If you used one in a grocery store and the merchant runs it through a reader that clears it through ACH, how is this different than using a debit card? On the other hand if they simply deposit the check, and it clears through the legacy Fed check clearing system is it considered digital then? When the banks moved their ledger from written books to electronic computers, did the money change to something different? i.e. What is the difference between money recorded in a written bank ledger vs one in a computer system?

 

All thought provoking questions, and I don't have the answers. For the sake of argument, if we were to assume I am always paid by my employer in FRNs which I then deposit in the bank it doesn't mean that my money is no longer a FRN. It's just no longer in paper form. This situation is too convoluted for me. That's what happens when the Constitution is ignored - only gold and silver are supposed to be used to coin money. At the time, coining money was the only way to create money. Since then we've created new ways to do it that don't involve coins, and the word 'coin' as an adjective is no longer contextually relevant, a convenient loophole.

 

A cheque is a promissary note that is not any form of currency until the amount is entered into a computor screen and deducted from the issuers account and handed back to you as a Federal Reserve Note by a bank teller. If you choose to deposit the cheque then it's digital currency. I am not sure if a postal money order is considered another form of U.S. dollar, I would think so because it's a government entity.

 

It is absolutely both ways, which demonstrates your level of knowledge. And it proves the point folks here have been telling you. US Treasuries are part of the US dollar money supply, and they are NOT issued by or through the Fed. QED.

And if you aren't aware of what is in a money market fund, you have no business participating in this discussion.

 

Medora, I'm only up to this point in reading the thread. I hope that in the rest (which I will continue reading after this post) I see some enlightening explanation for this that you wrote, for if not, I truly am from another planet. I'm hoping right now, without knowledge of what else is in this thread, that I'm not going to learn that physical money means nothing, that there's something else.. It must be that I am not understanding the post, and hopefully I will when I finish reading the rest. I'll ask if I need to.

Back to reading now. The red flag went up when I read your post.

Lucy

 

Lucy, maybe post 163 will help, or another post I made a few posts later. The point was there is many forms of the dollar, but for large transactions US Treasuries are the form they are stored in. FRN have a place, but just a certain function of US dollars.

 

Lucy you aren't the only one confused lol. I think it will make sense by the time you get to the end of the thread. He was just comparing how small a FRN dollar is in denomination as compared to a Treasury which is $1,000. It's not that they don't matter. They're just small potatoes in the global marketplace. Like comparing a dime to a $100 bill.

 

Scary..

 

Close, but its more scope of amounts outstanding. There is like $600 billion in all FRN, (cannot remember exact number), but $15 trillion in treasuries. US Treasuries is where large amounts of US Dollars are stored, not in FRN's.

The whole thing is just a point relating to someone else insisting ONLY FRN's are US dollars. I was simply trying to prove that statement false, and it has led to like 8 pages of all of this..............

I swear, threads on the PM side always get sidetracked because certain posters ever refusing to say, "maybe I was wrong".

If anyone is unclear about my posts I would be happy to clear it up, other than that I am simply tired or trying to argue side issues due to recalcitrance. Its boring and not discussing larger issues. BTW not directed at you Inflexion, your questions were fair and I was glad to clear it up for you.

Chris