crazy idea...

one question I got

ok I've heard there is alot of manipulation in shorts on silver...so I was wondering if it's possible to basically manipulate the price or actually stop manipulating the price so it rises alot and then force the price to drop?

I could see one of those groups that does try to control the price of silver to actually buy in long and stop the shorts...wait for the price to rise then sell off at a good profit...

is it a possibility or is this a crazy idea...

I'm sure if someone could buy in silver at $18/oz then manipulate it to $22-24 and sell and then make the price drop so they could buy in more...it would happen...

 

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Maybe you are too young to remember the Hunt Brothers fiasco.

http://www.buyandhold.com/bh/en/education/history/2000/hunt_bros.html

 

I was going to say also to remember the Hunt brothers. It can be done surely and perhaps easier than you think. It would require enough of a sale to initiate the computer trading programs to issue sell orders. Once the price takes a large enough dip, all the investors who use computer programs to manage their portfolios would sell also. The avalanch could start.

But as Doug pointed out. It would take a lot of money and silver (on paper) along with the willingness to spend some jail time if caught. I think the regulators watch this market like a hawk.

It must be remered that the Hunts removed entire freighter loads of Silver from the open market. Believed to gave been millions of tons !

 

Yes, it is possible because the silver market is so small by global standards. There are institutions managing a trillion dollars now. It is relatively easy for them to commit a couple of billion dollars to the silver futures market and push the price any way they want. The danger is that such activity is illegal. The CFTC has regulations on position limits in silver futures, and the limits are about to be lowered to further prevent price manipulation.

 

is it possible that a group of institutions are buying in knowing it will go up and once they see the peak they want they sell off? I just see the big spike on price and it screams manipulated to me...either in keeping it low in the past or in making a bubble...

 

sorry I posted anything...didn't mean to draw your wraith by asking questions...

I just thought of an idea that maybe some large scale institutions might be teaming up to drive the price up and then sell off...

I'll try not to post anymore if I can...

again sorry I posted on your forum

 

Alex, don't be so thin-skinned. Doug isn't trying to make fun of you or embarrass you. He's that way with everyone.

Chris

 

I think the difference is that with silver in particular, even a single mid-sized institution can successfully manipulate the price through the futures market unless prevented by regulation. For example, all of the silver in all of the Comex warehouses amounts to less than $3billion. This is peanuts, and invites manipulation unless the regulators are on the job. The 700 million ounces of annual silver production only amounts to about $15billion. The Vanguard mutual fund company owns over $10billion of Exxon common stock alone. These are not large numbers anymore in the world markets.

Other markets like wheat or oil are too large and liquid for a single player to manipulate. Even OPEC lost the ability a long time ago to make price changes stick. And no single shipping company can control world-wide shipping rates. Airlines also tend to be price-takers, not price makers. If this was not the case, they wouldn't be perennial money losers. To the best of my knowledge, no trading company in the world can manipulate the price of the US dollar. It takes central bank sized resources to do that. The list goes on and on.

I think you are confusing the definition of manipulation with normal price setting that all companies do to maximize profits and market share. So now it is time for you to do the usual word-dance and twist definitions to prove your point.

 

There`s no shame in Your question/theory. Let`s even say for the sake of argument that it were true........I would not worry about silver dropping too much and becoming a cellar dweller. Silver has far too much industrial importance and is emerging in many future applications. The investment potential on a global scale is rising, and as long as there is much "uncertainty" in the air it will do good. Check out some of Our older posts in the bullion forums about silver too.....There`s some good info about its` industrial applications. : )

 

Let's perform the same hunt bros MBA
but refer to it as the cointalk circle yee

 

Another "Spin" On A Definition

I beg to differ with you, as I believe you've just advanced a "Word Spin/Twist", which by the multiple definitions of the word MANIPULATE is, as that cited by Doug, also a correct definition.

You are applying the definition of "control" as being the only correct definition for "manipulation", whereas Doug correctly applied the definition of "influence" as also being acceptable.

I can cite counter circumstances to every proposition you've advanced, that I believe will support Doug's definition (e.g. Chinas' dollar "token" retained holdings manipulates our currency, and subsequently the US economy).

I respect/appreciate your knowledge and recognize that you understand the "truth", thus any additional explanation is foolish, and may be an exercise in futility.

Peace :thumb:

 

I am using the CFTC definition of manipulation and not the dictionary definition. I think this is most applicable to a discussion of silver pricing. In this case, the word refers to situations where there is price-setting rather than price discovery by one or more market participants; and not a casual influence from their actions.

I knew before even posting that it is futile, but felt that Alex raised a very good issue that was squashed through the improper use of the term in this instance.

 

Of course Doug is right about manipulation of everything you buy. I personally view daily 2 companies in a CME market who move the price. One has a vested interest in keeping the price low, the other high. The one keeping it low has deeper pockets so usually prevails. Since less than 1% of this commodity is traded on the market, but the price for all is set on the market, they can afford to lose money there to lower their overall costs. Thinly traded markets are dangerous, just like the PM markets.

 

That would depend on the individual. Some people are in it for amounts that others could not even fathom. But for the most part You are right about people missing the bigger picture......Take the cost of food for example....most people might notice a small increase in the price, but have no idea that the portion size has went down and is being cleverly masked by newly created deceptive containers and labels.

 

Another Interesting Spin!!

I trust you'll pardon my misunderstanding because you apparently must have clearly stated your definition reference, as you were quite succinct with your exception to Dougs' response. In my haste I must missed the reference. Regardless, how is the Commodities Futures Trading Commission related to the "your clothes, your cars & trucks, your homes" items which Doug mentioned. How does their (your?)twisted "price-setting" definition of the word MANIPULATION replace that of linguists, and the Collegiate English Dictionaries? I believe the two "price-setting" and MANIPULATION actions are related, and also that one of reasonable intelligence would objectively concur.

I expressed my respect/appreciation for your knowledge/intellect which has been diminish by your response. Please don't insult my intelligence by metaphorically "blowing smoke ", and telling me because of the cloudy circumstances, I can't see clearly.

Doug has properly explained to Alex that his response wasn't a personal affront, clarified any brevity which may have been misunderstood, and cited the relativity of the concerns expressed in this thread.

I trust that we can mutually appreciate others' understandings, find truth in responsive posts, and objectively respond in the future.

Thanks for your understandings. Peace!! :bow:

 

Does anyone out there have any NEW information on the 5 ounce silver bullion coins? I have called the US Mint and got no where......... No one knows anything..... It's like the coins were involved in some kind of government scandle and they act like they never existed..... Sorry, just tired of waiting for these things.....