Which TPG is "stronger" for each series?

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by WRSiegel, Apr 23, 2014.

  1. WRSiegel

    WRSiegel Freshman

    I apologize if this thread topic has been discussed 100 times already; I'm not very good with the search feature here. What got me thinking originally was Eisenhower Dollars, but I'm curious for all series if you all have any knowledge you'd like to shine on me :)
     
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  3. CamaroDMD

    CamaroDMD [Insert Clever Title] Supporter

    Actually, I think this is a great thread idea (assuming it's just PCGS vs. NGC). Having this info in a single thread would be an excellent reference.

    Speaking of Ike's, based on what I have seen...PCGS is the preferred with it comes to Eisenhower Dollars as they seem to be stricter.
     
  4. rzage

    rzage What Goes Around Comes Around .

    Definitely in Lincolns , PCGS doesn't like to give out 67s where NGC will . In the other grades they're pretty even . But you now will pay more for a PCGS MS-67 than a NGC -67 .
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2014
  5. Atarian

    Atarian Well-Known Member

    NGC is too easy on Eisenhower dollars. PCGS is more strict (i.e. more accurate) - most of the time. I still wonder about most of the PR70DCAMs...
     
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  6. coleguy

    coleguy Coin Collector

    Like Camaro said, this is a great topic for a thread. Even though I'm not a big slab guy, I do still buy them. I like PCGS for gold. NGC for most everything else.
     
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  7. tmoneyeagles

    tmoneyeagles Indian Buffalo Gatherer

    Indian $2.5 and $5 pieces are graded tougher by PCGS from what I've seen--honestly, most pre-1933 gold is in general. That might stir up some controversy as that is one of the lines from Collector's Universe, but it's an opinion I've begun to side with after seeing so many examples.

    A series like the Morgan Dollar is a toss up; you'll find 64's in 63 holders and 63's in 64 holders with both major TPG. I don't find one particular company to be harder or more lenient than the other with this series.
     
  8. cpm9ball

    cpm9ball CANNOT RE-MEMBER

    Always? Sounds kind of permanent to me.

    Chris;)
     
  9. cpm9ball

    cpm9ball CANNOT RE-MEMBER

    If you're into VAMing for Morgan and/or Peace dollars, then it might be better to use ANACS since they will attribute ALL VAM's. Unfortunately, NGC & PCGS do not.

    Chris
     
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  10. Jwt708

    Jwt708 Well-Known Member

    NGC has stricter standards for the Full Bell Lines designation on Franklins.
     
  11. DUNK 2

    DUNK 2 Well-Known Member

    PCGS for U.S. coins. NGC for foreign coins.

    IMHO.
     
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  12. micbraun

    micbraun coindiccted

    Hey, I wanted to say that :)
     
  13. Agilmore01

    Agilmore01 Well-Known Member

    I feel PCGS is better for Jefferson nickels. It's debatable on the Full Steps designation though. I love to collect Jeffersons, and PCGS almost always commands a premium over NGC. I am swapping out all of my NGC Jeff ' s for PCGS. It's especially hard for me to sell the older NGC slabs for any decent money. I frequently buy on Great Collections, and they price similar Jeff ' s differently, with PCGS almost always higher, and the older NGC slabs much lower. I tend to find more MS67 ' S by NGC, and they sell for much less than PCGS MS67's. All this makes me believe PCGS ' S grade is more respected in this series.

    Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
     
  14. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    What exactly do you mean by stronger WR ? Are you asking which one has stricter, tougher, grading standards and for which coins ? Or are you asking which one brings better prices and for which coins ?
     
  15. WRSiegel

    WRSiegel Freshman

    Doug,

    I was asking which has stricter grading standards for different coins. I'd think that this should correspond to higher prices, but I'm sure that there are exceptions.
     
  16. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    It used to be one great big exception, years ago PCGS slabs brought higher prices in almost every case. But it was never because they had tougher grading standards, it was because they were the first, because in the very year they opened for business the ANA came out with an actual tougher set of grading standards - MS65s became MS63s literally overnight - and David Hall claimed PCGS would do the same, because they had a really good advertising campaign, and because people bought into all of their hype.

    So when NGC came along a year later, started by the same guy who started PCGS, the only way PCGS could combat the competition was to claim that they were tougher and NGC was an also ran. More hype in other words, and people bought into it.

    But as time went on and people became better educated regarding coins, and had had time to actually compare NGC to PCGS, they began to realize that PCGS wasn't really any better or any tougher, and the difference in prices began to drop. Yeah, it happened slowly because change always happens slowly. People are always reluctant to change what they believe. But when ya see it with your eyes enough times, eventually you don't have any choice but to change what you believe. But there are always those who will hold out and never change.

    Today it is not at all uncommon to see NGC slabs sell for more than PCGS slabs, regardless of what coin is in the slab. For that matter it is not uncommon to see any given coin in a PCGS slab sell for more, sometimes a lot more even double, than the same coin in another PCGS slab. In other words, they're 65s, they're both graded by PCGS, but one sells for double what the other did. Same thing happens with NGC coins. This is because people have become even better educated than they used to be and now they realize that no two coins even graded the same are equal. And if they are not equal then one will sell for more than the other. And that's what happens today with NGC and PCGS coins - no two of them are equal either. More and more people are buying the coin, not the slab. But even so, the plastic buyers still outnumber the coin buyers.

    Fifteen years ago if you asked who's tougher NGC or PCGS and did a poll, PCGS would win hands down and probably by a margin of 3 to 1. Today, run the same poll, and it's actually been done here several times, and they will come out about even. That shows how much things have changed.

    Now who's tougher on what coin ? That depends on who you ask. It also depends on specific types and individual coins within that type, not just denomination. And real life experience shows that to be true. Regardless of what coin there have been many, many examples of a given coin graded by one (and I mean either or), cracked out and submitted to the other, and the coin was upgraded. And it's gone the other way, again with both companies, and the coin was downgraded. Same thing has happened with graded coins becoming no grade problem coins.

    So based on that, who's tougher ? Can you even say who is tougher given that evidence ? Some will claim you can and say this one or that one is, and it will almost inevitably be the one they have always believed was tougher. To really say, you'd have to have an open mind, and very few do.

    Personally I used to be able to rattle them off with no hesitation as to who was tougher on what coin. But to be honest standards have changed so much, loosened so much, and for both companies, that I don't think I could say anymore and have any chance of actually being right - even in my own mind. There doesn't seen to be any rhyme or reason to it anymore, no consistency. I have always said that NGC was more consistent than PCGS, but I don't even believe that to be true anymore.
     
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  17. Treashunt

    Treashunt The Other Frank

    For Barbers:

    Easy, NGC is tougher.

    PCGS is less so, but brings better prices.

    As a seller: PCGS

    As a buyer: NGC
     
  18. Morgandude11

    Morgandude11 As long as it's Silver, I'm listening

    I would honestly say dead equal overall. I have seen differences for individual coins far more than full series. The one exception is the star grade that NGC gives for exceptional eye appeal. PCGS has nothing like that.
     
  19. WRSiegel

    WRSiegel Freshman

    From experience, who do you all think grades Washington quarters more strictly?
     
  20. saltysam-1

    saltysam-1 Junior Member

    Martha. :>)
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2014
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  21. brg5658

    brg5658 Well-Known Member

    The most important thing in coin grading in consistency, not strictness. If the same company can't call the same coin the same numerical grade consistently upon cracked resubmission, then they have issues that go beyond whether NGC vs. PCGS is a higher number, etc.

    It's been 11 years now since the study was undertaken, but back in 2003 (I believe) there was a small group of coins that were submitted to several TPGs (not just PCGS and NGC), and some coins were submitted multiple times, and cross submitted to more than one TPG. The findings were that PCGS was the least consistent of all of those TPGs included (even SEGS and ICG if I recall). At the same time, PCGS was also consistently the lowest numerical grade given (so more strict, on average).

    What does this mean? It means, that while PCGS may be less likely to give out an MS65 for certain coins and certain series on a single submission, if you submit a coin enough times to them, it might make it there eventually based on their inconsistency. Again, this was more than a decade ago, though.

    As of today, I'd say NGC and PCGS are pretty much even. PCGS has a much larger marketing and propaganda machine that does NGC, so you may be swayed to believe PCGS is the (self-proclaimed) "undisputed #1" -- but I don't think you'd find much to support that numerically.

    People often use the justification that PCGS is "better" because their coins sell for more than NGC coins graded the same. This is supposedly because NGC coins graded the same are of lower quality. But, having seen dozens of coins that were sold in an NGC holder, and the exact same coin later was sold in a same-grade PCGS holder for more money -- I can tell you this: A higher price does not equate to higher quality. Much of the higher price paid for PCGS coins is a perception of higher quality. So, PCGS higher prices is great if you're selling -- but as a collector, I'm usually buying. It is great for dealers to convince you that PCGS coins sell for more -- and conveniently those same dealers sell almost exclusively PCGS coins. Collect the coin, not the plastic. You can find some great deals on wonderful coins in non-PCGS holders, overlooked by the nose-to-the-sky PCGS fan-boys.
     
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