So we have a new poster take an aggressive stance with another poster and we get 4 subsequent pages of non coin information. Personally it sounded like there was more to the story but I have to say there are reasons that eBay makes refund rules as they do. I had two counterfeit coins and a snad that I had to return. But instead of hypotheticals it sounds like one main issue is this. Is it ethical to sell modern graded coins you know will drop in price. I only buy non standard graded moderns. Type 2 and errors. But there are those who see value in normal graded coins. Further there is also hype. I would describe joe's sale as something between beenie babies and tickle me Elmo. Every now and then things get hyped up past reasonable (housing market anyone?) and because speculative. This behavior goes back hundreds of years. The real issue was someone bought a coin and waited out the hype value then returned it. I see it as returning a scratched off lottery ticket. I don't think there is anything morally wrong for selling a coin for thousands over "true" value when the buyers know what they are getting into. All of the buyers for this auction know what they were getting. But for eBay to work people like me sold counterfeit coins need recourse. I was also sold an 1862 ihc (I think it was 62) as unc and it came back cleaned au detailed. I don't think I should have to keep that coin and I didn't. I'll tell you what I am planning to do. My wife ordered me a pair of google glasses and when that comes in I bet I can drop it on eBay for multiples what I will pay for it. And I know they will drop their value quick but if someone wants to overpay me for them I'll sell. They might try to return the glasses But I'll still try to cash in. I'll check no refunds but I'll expect the buyer to be able to return in 30 days. And I'll honor the refund as per eBay rules. As for the new guy, I think there was some unnecessary roughness. I personally think that the seller should simply refund and not think twice. I don't agree with joe on this issue. Because of all the bad behavior on eBay with dishonest sellers I feel there really needs to be a thirty day no questions asked policy. Yes the smudge was bogus but it shouldn't matter because there are so many guys playing games out there returns need to be simple and straight forward. I'm sure joe is honest and straightforward but there are many who aren't. New guy you seem lively even though you have some serious typo issues. I hope you will stick around and make things a little more exciting here. Coin for the thread. It doesn't have to be expensive to be pretty.
I don't understand a lot of the message you have posted Vic but there is something that I would like to ask you? Why would you post an item on a site that adds commission to P&P when there are so many good sites that you can advertise on for free. I'm not trying to be funny with you in any way, but I learned long ago that all the villians seem to drift to ebay and I therefore steer well clear of it. I sympathise with any grievance you might have with ebay for their various policies and my advice is vote with your feet and move your items to a site with more integrity. Please be as honest as you want with me in your reply, I am being sincere.
The new guys anger towards Joe made it appear that he was the buyer of the coin. E-Bay sellers don't mind the SNAD rule; but they hate the fact that E-Bay's application of the SNAD rule almost always sides with the buyer regardless of facts. In this case, do you think that Joe misrepresented the coin in any way? As you have pointed out, volatility does not just exist in the collectibles market. Please name me another investment market where you get to return your investment purchase for full value if the price drops? What is "true" value? You make the assumption that the value of the coin will drop in the future as a statement of fact. What if the value actually increased? Should the seller be able to require the buyer to have to return the item for 30 days because the value increased and he has seller's remorse? If you decided that the coin was a SNAD within the established return window then I agree that you shouldn't have to keep the coin. But apparently you had time to get the coin graded, which takes over 1 month, and still file a successful SNAD case. You purchased a raw coin, not a certified coin with a grade guarantee. Grading is subjective. Simply because the TPG's opinion of the coin claims the coined was cleaned, what makes their opinion infallible and more reliable than the seller's grading opinion? There have been very recent threads on Cointalk showing that NGC is grading coins as cleaned that show no evidence of cleaning. How much time expired before you filed a SNAD case on that 1862 IHC? It is your position that every item that is sold on E-Bay is entitled to a 30-day unconditional return policy regardless if the item is Significantly Not As Described or not. There needs to be a balance between buying and selling on E-Bay. Without that balance, sellers will exit stage left. How many times have you seen a member of this forum or another forum state that they will no longer sell on E-Bay precisely because of the imbalance on E-Bay that strongly favors the buyer? Your proposal is to exacerbate that situation even further for no other reason than to serve your own personal desires. The smudge was bogus and it should matter. The buyer got EXACTLY what was described in the listing and the smudge was visible in the photograph. The only reason that buyer should be able to return the coin is because Joe made a mistake and offered a 14 day return. Had Joe listed the item with "No Returns" he should not be forced to issue a refund to a guy gambling in an investment market. There is a difference between a consumer and an investor. That is why E-Bay does not require return policies on bullion items which experience daily fluctuations in value. What you are proposing is an incredibly unfair advantage to buyers of investment collectibles. As for the new guy, your hope that he wasn't banned is tantamount to rubbernecking. The guy caused a community disruption immediately and insulted the owner of the forum. It may have been entertaining, but it is not something I would like to see repeated over and over again.
I love eBay and anytime I have had a problem 3/400 purchases they made it right. I think eBay is great I have both bought and sold there but mainly bought. And this is as honest as it gets. Look back I have prior threads I started talking about my love for eBay.
1. So I said I thought it was like returning a used lottery ticket. I thought that was pretty clear. 2. I agree it can suck for the sellers that you have the window of risk with eBay as far as returns go. However all it takes is these few guys selling stuff that is not as described to ruin it for the others. Being stuck with a counterfeit coin is just as unacceptable. 3. It was inside thirty days if you can believe that. Don't ask me how or why but they only took 2 weeks. And if you sell me an uncirculated coin and it is BOTH cleaned and au then it is going back. Period. You can make an argument for one or the other but not both in my opinion. 4. I think if snad then 30 days. If not then I don't know maybe 7-14 ish. 5. I specifically said the smudge was bogus read the post again. The problem comes back to the fact a few bad apples have ruined it for all the guys like joe and just like everything else in life everyone is paying for it. But as much as sellers want or wish for eBay to do one thing or another without BUYERS there is no eBay. I don't think you should have 30 days to return an ounce of gold and I do think this material should not have refunds but in general the price of a 1865 2c Pr66 red is not going to move that much in a month so really this problem only affects a few coins. I agree joe got screwed someone returned his beenie baby after it dropped in price but if you are going to either buy or sell tickle me Elmo you need to accept all of the volatility that goes with being in that sector. And the new guy didn't use insults until they were used first. Yes he came out strong but it makes a more lively discussion when people just lay the cards on the table and tell us what they really think.
1) But you are okay with a buyer being able to return a used lottery ticket? 2) Again, sellers don't mind SNAD complaints if they are handled correctly by E-Bay. But when over 90% of all complaints are settled in the buyers favor, something is wrong. E-Bay's decision to blindly side with buyers regardless of facts creates a scenario for con artists to exploit reputable sellers. This causes the good sellers to stop selling on E-Bay or raise their prices. 3) I believe that you got a quick turnaround time. My point is that if you are going to buy raw coins on E-Bay, then you should be able to grade and authenticate the coins yourself inside the 14 day return window. Buyers should not be given a 30 review period so that they can have the coin graded and then return the coin if they don't like the grade. I have had NGC details grade 3 of my last 40 coins and none of the 3 showed any evidence of cleaning. I won't go so far as to say they are being told to do this intentionally in order to boost resubmissions, but I wish I submitted more coins so that I could see whether this is bad luck or a trend in their grading. 4) SNAD 30 days, 14 if otherwise is the way it is now for sellers who accept returns. I don't think E-Bay should require sellers to accept returns. It should be up to the buyer to avoid sellers who don't accept returns if a return policy is important to them. 5) I know you said the smudge was bogus. You also said you didn't care and thought the guy should be able to return it anyway. You now have be confused. You don't think that bullion should have mandatory returns because the value fluctuates daily. Under that premise, then Joe's HOF coin should qualify for no returns since everyone expected the price to fluctuate and the market at the time of sale was extremely volatile. You then went on to write this: "I agree joe got screwed someone returned his beenie baby after it dropped in price but if you are going to either buy or sell tickle me Elmo you need to accept all of the volatility that goes with being in that sector." What you are proposing is that those who sell "tickle me Elmo" accept all of the volatility while those that buy "tickle me Elmo" assume zero risk. Again, there needs to be balance on E-Bay. You stated that without BUYERS, there is no E-Bay. Guess what, without SELLERS, there is no E-Bay. It works both ways. The minute the rules are made to favor one side over the other, members of that side will use those rules to exploit the other side financially. If you can't see that then I really don't know what to say.
The buyer did a simple return. I'm very surprised people have a problem with that. It's no different than if you bought something at Home Depot and you realize it doesn't fit your project or you ended up with some extras. You take it back and the seller gives your money back. If the seller didn't want to accept returns he had the option to check that box or sell it somewhere else. If the seller thought the price would drop so fast, he probably would have been more careful.
I don't know whether this is directed at me or not, but I will clarify that I agree that all the buyer did in Joe's case is avail himself of the stated return policy and I stated as such in that thread. This thread is a spinoff and what we are discussing here is very different. We are talking about mandatory returns which I don't agree with.
Let's Agree to disagree. I'm saying there is real risk involved in selling products like we are talking about and that if you are not comfortable with this risk then don't sell these products on eBay. Bullion is a different product then speculative modern graded coins. And given how strong ebay's coin market is I find the whole "all of the sellers will leave" argument null and void. One year ago the average number of ngc pcgs us coins was around 100,000 now it is 130,000. By protecting buyers eBay appears to be growing stronger not weaker
Okay friend, You are equally entitled to your opinion, I just don't understand your willingness to pay for adverts sales and P&P, when there are sites that let you do it 'all' for nothing.
In my opinion eBay is the best place to buy coins. Yes you have to steer clear of the bad offers of which there are many. However the fact that there are 130,000 + pcgs and ngc us coins offers deals for those who spend the time and effort. There is buyer protection for those who are sold items not as described and you even get 2% cash back in ebucks. With time and patience I will slowly buy over time and make a petty dollar here and there. The point of me buying and selling is more sport then financial. Think of it as catch and release but with coins instead of fish. The market at eBay is huge. There are free sites but you get what you pay for in life. As an aside it looks like my google glass is staying with me others sold on eBay today with no real margins.
I understand why Vegas Vic applauds Ebays current policy and would like a 30 day no questions asked policy. It's because he's one of the guys abusing the policy. How are you able to sleep at night knowing that on at least one occasion that you allowed an EBay seller to refund you $300 over the cost of the item that you returned? Furthermore, what is worse? Accepting money that is not yours? Or doing so and then bragging about it on CT? You have no crediibilty here IMO....
yes you are right. if you sell me a roll with counterfeit coin and then I find out the entire item was fraudulent ( the seller having two unsearched rolls with 1909s Lincoln on one side and an indian s reverse on the other), when you ignore ebays demand that you refund me the remaining $700 and force me to go back to ebay again then yes I have no problem taking your money. it is pretty clear they were willing to lie and cheat to get my money. if you want to play a lie and cheat game with me then no bitching if I beat you. I have said this before I have asked for and received refunds only on coins 3 times. 2 were counterfeit coin events and one was an unc 1862 ihc that graded au cleaned. if this is abusive then yeah I am one of those horrible ebay buyers that everyone should ban. feel free not to read this like the other 2 times I have stated the above and make more uninformed statements about me and my ebay use. please please really respond to the above. tell me why I was wrong to return counterfeit coins. tell me why it is not ok to steal from a thief stealing from you. tell me why I should have to keep an 1862 ihc that was promised unc and grades pcgs au details cleaned. if you can give me good reasons why I should have never used the ebay return system for these three times I have returned coins I will happly never post here again as it appears you want me to go. FYI remember I sent coins to pcgs. Is it fair for me to have to pay for grading when you sell, knowingly sell counterfeit and fraudulent items knowing that I am wasting my time AND money? I did not finish the deal $300 ahead. dude the guy I got money from has had multiple threads only about him cheating people written by OTHER people. search denvercertifiedcoins and look for yourself. although seeing how you go off on me it appears reading is not something you are big on. good luck with providing a good answer to my response. and fyi I sleep like a baby. no staying awake wondering if the fraudulent coin dealer is paying his mortgage or not.
The big villain here is the site itself. The number of friends I have that have left ebay for various reasons continues to grown. I could tell you of three sites that charge nothing for posting , posting photographs, no commission on P&P and no commission on sales! I could also tell you an American sales site that only charges if you sell and at no other time. Send me a personal message and I will give you the information?
