Sleeper Coins

Boooo! What a cop out! Everyone else is sharing...

 

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Several years ago I bought about ten 1927 Peace Dollars over a period of a few months. These are mid to high grade, and are worth more than what I paid for themwithout a doubt. But, it is a good thing I did it for a fun thing to do because probably a CD from the bank would have done better. But, they are going to come awake someday with a roar aren't they? Please say yes even if you don't think so to make me feel better.

 

Lots and lots of ideas of what may or may not be valuable in the future. I've said this one many times and usually get ignored. ALL coins will become really valuable in the not to distant future. The reason is no one will be making them at all. Soon there will be no need for coinage or paper currency. Yes, possibly some periodically, but not really to much.
Today already many people do not use money as we know it today. My Son is a good example and he owns a buisness. Vending machines everywhere are becoming usable with plastic cards. Gas stations now allow you to pay at the pump with plastic. Every store I go to not only accepts credit/debit cards, some look at you funny when you pull out cash. In a line not long ago at a store I noticed all five in front of me used credit/debit cards.
If it wasn't for the flea markets, I don't know where I'd use cash anymore myself.
Primarily with intercontinental trading as high as it is, eventually there can only be one monitary system on Earth. And it will be electronic, not with paper money or coins.
Naturally in the hills of Tennessee a jug of moonshine will still have to be in cash.:goofer:

 

I am more than willing to share all information I have,Always have been

I am more than willing to share all information I have. Always have been that is how we all benefit from these forums is the free flow of knowledge.
EISENHOWER DOLLAR 1971-1978
I feel I have to present a little reasoning for my thinking first though to avoid the very quick response nay sayers. This series has as some of its more intriguing attributes the fact that it Is more than 30 years old, in high grades regularly goes at auction higher than price guides show and definitely in multiples of Grey Sheet Pricing, which I think led to the series not getting the exposure up until recently. If you are a dealer that depends on the Grey Sheet and you read that “X” coin bid is only $6.00 and ask is $6.75 there is no incentive for you to have that coin taking up valuable real estate in your cases at a shop and especially at a show. Collectors will definitely not sell them to you for “bid” because they know that a collector will pay multiples of bid In higher grades.
http://www.numismedia.com/fmv/pricesms/ikedlr/prices61.shtml
http://www.pcgs.com/prices/PriceGuideDetail.aspx?MS=1&PR=1&SP=1&c=31&title=Ike+Dollar
New varieties in this series are being discovered at an incredible rate. And the fact that some of the larger third party graders just flat refuse to recognize some of the Major design varieties and I do mean MAJOR. Example: 1971–D RDV-006 (Friendly Eagle Variety) A completely unique reverse design, which encompasses major design elements of the entire coin in one year and one Mint Mark and has been known about for years. Is refused to be designated by some MAJOR third party Graders. Those who collect them know which graders of which I speak. Yet within a month or so of its discovery the Wisconsin high and low leaf quarters were being designated by the same third party graders.
That is just one example of one variety many more have been discovered recently due to the fact that there is more people studying this series. Like the VAM’s of the Morgan series.
The Ike Group Web site http://www.ikegroup.org/ is ground zero for the study of the Eisenhower Dollar and all of its varieties. They are a great group of guys dedicated to and enjoying the ground breaking work being done.
STEWART
Any and all opinions are my own and subject to being only worth the screen space they occupy

 

All excellent points!! ...except, what do we do when the power goes out?

 

I hoped my would let you know I was just kidding...but, thanks for sharing, I learned a lot from your post!

I don't collect Ike dollars, although I have a few. I've never actually seen an Ike dollar in circulation so it's hard for me to warm up to them. Same is true for Kennedy halves...but people collect them and the prices keep going up. "Sleepers" are the coins no one thinks about until it's too late.

Do you know if the mintages are accurate? Since they didn't circulate much, I suspect many may have been melted. It's hard to believe that all those tens of millions of coins were actually put into circulation...or are still sitting on a shelf somewhere.

 

Stewart;

It's simply astounding howe overlooked the Ikes have always been. Oh sure they got lots of attention when they first came out and lots of people set aside rolls and bags despite the low quality of the strikes and all the marking on the coins but over the years this trailed off. Also in the longer term a lot of these early Ikes were hauled off to the banks for redemption many of the rest have been "consumed" by those seeking gems and varieties.

The biggest thing noncollectors don't realize is the challenge in putting together a nice attractive set of these. I'm not talking about the gems that most people know are rare but just nice attractive coins; very choice and near gem coins. This is what most people prefer and where large demand could develop yet these are not readily available for many of the dates and most of the dates would be tough in there were very much demand.

Ikes are far scarcer than morgans in high grades but they are relatively scarcer yet in the mid grades. It's only in the low grades that Ikes are common and even here they can be tougher than a lot of Morgans.

As an example the '73-P Ike was kind of difficult to find in near gem when the mint sets were brand new. They were all nice and bright and shiny but most had a little strike deficiency and almost all have marking. It wasn't that hard to find a nice attractive coin though since there were millions of mint sets and about every fifteenth '73-P was a near gem. But that was then and this is now.

Time has not been kind to these sets because people have ignored them so long. Most have been busted up and many of the survivors have degraded. But more pernicious is the fact that peoiple have been seeking nice attractive Ikes since the early '80's and half the surviving sets have been cherry picked for nice specimens. This means that finding a nice near gem '73-P will now require that you look at 35 or 40 sets and just finding so many sets can be diffuicult now days because there aren't so many left.

I love the gems and varieties and they're great collectibles but most people aren't going to be able to afford any higher grade than the choice coins. When people start realizing that the gems are far scarcer than Morgans that sell for multiples of the price of Ikes the demand for the Ikes will increase. The CDN recently did a great article on the difficulty of finding the high grades and thios might be part of the reason they're getting more attention. ...or perhaps it's more a symptom.

 

cladking,

Could not agree with you more. I started out to build a nice Ike Dansco set a almost two years ago thinking, short series,very inexpensive wonderful history (Ike is one of my personal heroes), easy to build. Boy I could not have been more wrong I am to date only about 2/3rd's of the way complete. even though I have hundreds of examples most are in the variety realm. I got hooked up with the Ike Group and what started out as a simple set build turned into a full blown case of Ike OCD (Obsessive Compulsive disorder) realizing that I was on the ground floor of the discovery of so many varieties in one series.
It has been one wild ride and it is far from over.

yakpoo

As far as mintage's for the Ike Series being accurate What the mint actually minted I think they are accurate but that fact the we had the Great Melt of 1979 -1980 when Silver prices reached $50.00 per ounce I personally saw moving boxes of the 40% Eisenhower's (Blue Pack Uncirculated and Brown Box Proofs) being shipped to the smelters. And that was just from the one coin shop that I frequented when I was a teenager.
Then the fact that a lot of them were shipped to Las Vegas for slot machines. and a slot machine is not the best enviroment for preserving the sufaces of a coinNo one is sure how many are left . And the high prices for the High grade ones now days shows me that they are getting harder and harder to find in those high grades. Hope this helps.



Stewart

 

I don't think either is the case.

If the FED had melted any we should know about it so it's most unlikely any cu/ ni were melted other than a very small handfull of damaged coins that would be included with other damaged clad. I'm talking a few thousand coins here tops.

It's also highly unlikely there are any coins sitting on a shelf somewhere or lost in storage. The FED uses FIFO accounting and is required to take out of storage the coins which have been there the longest. All these coins have been issued to circulation according to these guidelines and FED practice.

The Ikes did circulate up until 1981 but at a very low rate. Most Ikes probably didn't change hands more than ten or fifteen times and many didn't circulate this way at all really. Of thoise that weren't used this way perhaps 20% were chewed up in casainos before a visitor took them home as a souvenir. The other 80% (40% of the total) were issued in bags to individual banks. A few of these were set aside by collectors but the bulk have just slowly gotten mixed in with the "worn" coins over the years. There was a net outflow of these from the banks and many of the individual coins are sliding around in sock drawers or change jars.

Look at the types of accumulations that dealers have that they buy cheap and sell for $1.20 or $1.30 each. These tend to be lightly worn pieces with a few super sliders and beat up coins from casinos. Many are the AU/ XF examples that circulated and have been bouncing around in bags ever since.

About 25% of the mintage is gone now, lost to fire and flood and other calamity. Most are degraded and the surviving uncs are mostly ones that were intentionally set aside in rolls, bags, and mint sets. The bicentennial coins are mostly fairly common in unc but there probably aren't 2,000,000 of any of the other dates in uncs and some are much scarcer. This isn't counting the super sliders and uncs in bags. But, again, the vast majority of these uncirculated coins are MS-63 or less (usually much less). Many of the Ikes looked like MS-40 when they were brand new though these surely haven't survived as well.

 

Hey Just Carl-
On the flip side, a world w/o coins might lead to less interest in coins. In that scenario, look for a premium to be paid on early examples of plastic that still have the "OB.*"

*Original Balance! A TPG will charge you more for OB designation...

 

And PS-
The only way coins will stop being made is if corporations decide that every monetary transaction needs to be on the books; in other (ironic) words, have a paper trail. I doubt there is an interest in that happening! Even if corporations get on board, look for the Posse Comitatus to open a mint! Doesn't every American want some wiggle-room?!

 

Cladking,

Looking at the prices in Numismedia FMV which Stewart posted a link to earlier, the only coin in the entire series that is cost prohibitive in MS65 is the 1972 T2. Personally, I don't think the indifference to this series has much to do with relative scarcity or price. The fact is that these coins are just not very attractive. I know you love clad coins, but most people find the composition far less attractive than copper, silver, or gold. To me it boils down to one very simple factor, eye appeal. Comparing IKE's to Morgans seems to favor IKE's if you ignore eye appeal. But when viewed side by side, it becomes much harder to favor the IKE's. Here are my best MS65 & MS68's side by side.





Now I am not saying that IKE's are not a good candidate for sleeper, I think they are sleepers. However, it is their relative afford-ability compared to their scarcity that makes them a sleeper. If collecting IKE's was cost prohibitive, I would declare the entire series dead. The true treasure in the IKE series is the varieties IMO, it certainly ain't eye appeal.

 

That could definitely put a spotlight on coin collecting for a while if they totally did away with them. Even if they did, I would think the mint would still make commemoratives every year and probably bullion. If that's all there was to collect every year, from then on, the mint would probably get swarmed with customers for commems I would imagine.

 

To each his own and it's very easy to understand why many people don't care much for clad copins or any modern circulating coins. While their artistic merit is sure to be more greatly appreciated in time they are never going to be considered "high art" in all probability. They tend toward the mundane in design and execution. Most people either can't stand that they are base metal or can't stand what they represent or both. This will change a little bit in the short run and a lot in the longer run no doubt but most individuals who hate them aren't going to change their minds.

I'm the exception but I not only prefer the art of the Ike to the Morgan but in a sense I prefer the metallic content. No, I love silver and am its #1 fan but if Ikes were made of silver then many more would have been set aside and they wouldn't be unappreciated. Like the clad quarters it's the very fact that they are clad that has allowed them to pass under the radar so we sight seers could seek them out and their numbers would dwindle away over time. Many millions of 1964 quarters were set aside by collectors and the general public and these might remain common for another thousand years. They'll probably never be rare. But every year another 2 or 3% of 1965 quarters are lost forever and 90% of the survivors get degraded a little more.

To me this is exciting just watching this process unfold. Even if the Ikes and quarters never get very popular it's fun to watch and fun to have an interest in it. It's a hoot to watch the coins in circulation since they aren't picked over like the silver coins back in the 1950's were. There's a lot these coins can teach and lots of insights into the way things work. If they were all picked over the story would be harder to see.

I didn't mean to imply that many people might be priced out of the Ikes at the current time. I believe that few moderns will get much interest as sets except in nice choice condition. Sure some of the key dates will be collected in lower grades but for the foreseeable future I think most collectors will want the bulk of their sets in choice. The supply of Ikes is so thin in choice condition that when demand is high enough to push the privce of these up the gems will simply go through the roof. It might not have much effect on the very highest grades but demand will manifest and spill over into gems and this will push their price out of reach of collectors of more modest means.

I foresee a pricing structure where the spread between MS-64 and MS-67 isn't nearly so great as the current time. Prices will drop off quickly below MS-63 though except for varieties. This will more closely resemble the relative availability of the coins. Current prices are heavily weighted to what the most advanced and registry collectors demand. The number of these collectors will increase as well but perhaps not nearly so fast as the number of those just seeking nice attractive sets.

 

From the books and articles I've read, the critics have always been out in force every time a new coin design hits the streets. Since the 1700s to now. Very few coins in U.S. history have received a warm, initial reception from the public. It seems as though it takes a few generations to pass before they are appreciated down the road.

 

You're right. They've all been panned. Even my favorite, the buffalo nickel, was largely scorned initially. The early designs were especially poorly received.


But the modern designs are too wordy and too mundane to ever get considered great art, I think. The Ike stands tall above the rest (especially the reverse) but still isn't great art.

 

Sleeper potential coins:
1. Type B Washington Quarters - more and more of these are being discovered and the true populations may never be known. From what I understand, all the TPGs are now attributing these and you will see the demand start to rise.

2. Type II Franklin Halves - I don't know if all the TPGs are attributing these, but once they do, these will surely rise in demand and value.

3. 2007 Rev proof platinum 1/2 oz. - 30k of these were supposed to be minted, but only 18-19k of these have sold. Nobody knows what the mint is doing with the other 11k of these. Are they selling them? Are they storing them? Are they going to melt them? The prices on these have dropped, but that was mostly due to the drop in platinum bullion value. Once the final mintages of these have been disclosed, I think the value of these will increase in value.

4. First Spouse coins.....of course!

5. 2009 Mint sets. I don't think this has been mentioned yet, but Yakpoo and I were discussing this today. This is the only set to find the 95% copper unc Lincolns. Buy them now while you can.

 

I have a set of Ike Dollars myself I bought a few years back. I thought it was pretty good deal to purchase a set of thirty two coins for the price I got them, especially since there is some silver involved. The only problem is I read a year or so after I got them the mint has millions of Ike Dollars in storage.

I have no way of knowing if this is true or not. I also have no idea how the writer of the article knew this. Has anyone else ever heard about the mint still having millions of Ike Dollars on hand?

 

Federal storage??? I heard that when ikes get turned into banks they get taken out of circulation and sent to the feds. theyre only retrieved when a customer asks for the bags from their bank. which is practically a hard thing to do, most banks flat out refuse to. but if you can get them they come in $1,000 bags, lots of times they will be uncirculated occasionally toned, nothing vibrant but evident bag toning that many morgans recieved. I have heard theyve not been released into circulation since 1981. wonder if theyre doing another morgan hoarde. except with ikes.