Rising values of counterstamped coins

Bruce - after receiving the coin and carefully inspecting it, I see nothing other than a standard mark in the larger punch. I had hoped for something to shed some light on the counterstamp, but alas...

-John @ Cow City Coin

 

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One other thing I forgot to mention John was that back in the "old days" the letter "I" was often used in place of a "J" in initials. So if someone's name was James Smith for instance his initials might appear as I.S. not J.S. as you'd expect. I have no idea why this was done but it often was. I've asked a number of people over the years but no one seems to know why.
If this substitution is the case on your coin you may actually looking for someone with the initials J.S. This doesn't help much in identifying the maker, but it's interesting just the same. Again, very nice old counterstamp.

Bruce

 

Hi Bruce,

I'm not sure if this idea already floats around amongst the counterstamp collectors for positing why an "I" was used also for "J" but the idea that springs to my mind is the Latin abbreviation often seen on crucifixes, "INRI" representing the phrase,"Iesus Nazarenus, Rex Iudaeorum" or "Jesus the Nazarene, King of the Jews."

There may be a legacy of use in this more ancient sense that was reflected in the era of the counterstamps aesthetic and reverence for antiquity.

Today's post brought to you by the the letter J.

 

Hi Chris,
That's really an interesting thought. When you think about it, it does make sense. I've never heard that idea considered but it could very well be the answer. I'll run it by a few people and see what their thoughts are. Good to talk to you again Chris.

And this post brought to you by the word "Thanks"

Bruce

 

I am no expert on this, but I think that it may not be so much that ‘I” was used instead of “J” but that either:

1) in a different language the word/name may be spelled with an I (such as Latin)

or

2) that the letter J back in “the old days” looked like our modern I.

For point #2, I use as an example the letter S in Colonial era documents. When an S appeared within a word (not at the end) it resembled today’s letter F. It is not that they used F instead of S, but it was the case that the way the S was written was how we might write F today.

Just some food for thought….

And BTW, I agree that the huge c/stamp here is a little suspicious as a jeweler’s mark. He would have decimated whatever it was he crafted by using that punch on it.

 

Good points Jeff, but there are many examples - especially from silversmiths - where we know his name is John or Jacob for example and in his mark he uses an "I" I've also seen the letter "J" used as well so I think there's a different reason. I'm going to ask around and see if anyone knows.

Bruce

 

If you come up with an easy answer please post it - I am interested in any comments people may have. I made a quick Google search and came up with a very messy Wikipedia entry for the letter J. If I read it correctly, certain letters did not exist way back when (much father back than the c/stamps we are talking about) and other letters/spellings were common.

I do know that in some other languages, names that we know as starting with J start with I, but I take those cases to mean that there is a different word for that name in another langauge. We may be seeing permiatations of all this on the older conterstamps.

Wikipedia illustrated a capital J, and lower case J (both of which are familiar to us), and also what it called a "LATIN SMALL LETTER DOTLESS J". Yikes! It looked like an "l" to me.

Someday I will relate an amusing (frustrating at the time) story about the time I tried to get something engraved with my initials in Germany - there was much confusion over the letter J. The way I wrote it down (normal in the US) was interpreted by him as a T....

 

Snapped my own pics of our counterstamped coin, described above. I'd have to believe this is the undated large cent example described in Brunk's book.

 

It could be jester, but it's hard to be sure. Brunk will tell you himself that he's only examined in-hand or seen pictures of a very small number of the tens of thousands that are out there. He relies heavily on his contributors, auction catalogs, articles in publications and other sources to add new undocumented pieces to his index.

Bruce

 

As has been discussed here before, patience is often the best approach to stalking a favorite counterstamp at a reasonable price. It worked once again for me last week.

I have seen, wanted, and bid on, quarters counterstamped (usually on both sides) with “R. Thies”. All the ones I have seen seem to date from the mid-1970s (such as Bicentennial quarters) and into the mid-1980s. I have chased them without success to well over $20 on eBay before, but the one I won last week cost me 99 cents! (And that was 99 CANADIAN cents!). I think the key was that the Canadian seller listed some ridiculous postage charge – about $20 for international registered delivery – on the main page but then listed a cheaper alternative on the shipping details screen. In any case, there were no competitors and I finally got an example for my collection.

I am wondering if anyone has any information on who did these quarters. (There is an artist name Ryan Thies, but he is not the source. )

Thanks for any ideas anyone might have.

 

Some of the Thies counterstamps also have numbers stamped on them such as No. 40. I don't know what the numbers represent nor do I know who R. Thies is. You're correct about it not being the Texas artist named Ryan Thies Jeff. This is usually the bogus information supplied by sellers of these pieces, probably repeated over and over again until it becomes "fact".
Many, many of these pieces were found in Nevada casinos in the 1970s and 80s so it was always thought that the source was from that part of the country. The best guess today is that the issuer may have been a man named Richard J. Thies from Reno, NV. Thies was the chief economists of the United States Silver Corp. in Van Nuys in 1972 and sometime in the mid 1970s was Vice President of Security Monetary Systems. Again, this is just a possibility as there's no evidence directly linking him to the counterstamp.
BTW, I have an example in my collection also. I paid $15 for it several years ago.

Bruce

 

Bruce - thanks for that great information. I have not seen the ones that are numbered. I wonder if he used the c/stamps to track his odds/winnings in the slots.

I would have been happy to pay $15 for one., The Canadian seller I bought it from for .99 does not realize that higher unnecessary shipping costs result in lower bids. He only hurt himself, but I was quite happy!

 

I've only seen one or two that were numbered. It may be that someone added the numbers at a later date, but who knows for sure. Interesting pieces...maybe we'll find out the name of the issuer someday.

Bruce

 

[I have one of these quarters im wanting to sell!!




QUOTE="JBK, post: 1895437, member: 1101"]I am no expert on this, but I think that it may not be so much that ‘I” was used instead of “J” but that either:

1) in a different language the word/name may be spelled with an I (such as Latin)

or

2) that the letter J back in “the old days” looked like our modern I.

For point #2, I use as an example the letter S in Colonial era documents. When an S appeared within a word (not at the end) it resembled today’s letter F. It is not that they used F instead of S, but it was the case that the way the S was written was how we might write F today.

Just some food for thought….

And BTW, I agree that the huge c/stamp here is a little suspicious as a jeweler’s mark. He would have decimated whatever it was he crafted by using that punch on it.[/QUOTE]

 

I was just in the process of doing a search for some counterstamp info and stumbled upon this old thread. Upon reading it through, I thought I'd offer my "penny's worth" on the I/J discussion. It's long been my understanding that the early use of the "I" initial was specifically used by men named John. John translates to Ian; the names being synonymous.

Here's an example from my collection. Beldon, author of a book on silversmiths, attributes the below I-B hallmark (with a dot or bullet between the letters) to John Burger. He does not mention the heart "touchmarks." Beldon dated it to 1805-07. Burger was listed as a silversmith in an 1808 directory, doing business at 62 James Street in NY City. Note that the below host coin is dated 1801, being consistent with the era that Belden ascribed to this mark.



Here's hoping that this interesting counterstamp thread continues to evolve ....

 

Thanks for the info, Bill. I always had trouble understanding the I/J relationship too. I knew it was interchangeable, so to speak, but never understood why until now. Beautiful coin and counterstamps, BTW.

Bruce

 

are chop marks a form of counterstamp? thanks

 

Short answer: "Yes." Chop marks were utilized by Chinese merchants to establish the legitimacy of foreign coins circulating there. This is but one of many categories (uses) of counterstamps or countermarks. Generally speaking, the two terms, counterstamp and countermark, are used interchangeably, but some collectors tend to split hairs, viewing the latter term as applying to official, state-authorized marks. Personally, I view the terms as synonymous; this, as does Brunk.