Ebay mistake costs big money

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by jaceravone, Apr 14, 2014.

  1. jaceravone

    jaceravone Member

    Some of the greatest lessons in coin collecting can also be the most expensive. I have learned one of these lessons and want to share it with the group with the hopes that they don't make the same mistake as I did. Laugh as you may, let the haters hate but if one person can learn from this then my mission is accomplished.

    A few weeks ago, I was one of the lucky few who attended the Whitman Baltimore show and was able to purchase my allotment of commemorative baseball coins. I knew these coins were going to be a big hit and patiently waited in line for hours to get my coins. Then I stood in line again at the grading services to get them graded. Within 24 hours I had flipped my coins and made enough money to pay for the cost of the coins and grading plus my entire trip to Baltimore for 3 days and even support the purchase of several coins. I considered myself very fortunate and lucky. Some of you even saw my posts stating so on some of the baseball threads.

    I had kept a 3 coin proof set for myself and a 2 coin unc set for myself. At the urging of my roommate at the Baltimore show, I decided to put them up on ebay. With the prices these were getting, I would be crazy not to since I had several more sets coming to me in the mail. I sold my unc coins for crazy money, followed by the silver and clad proofs. I wanted to keep my gold because I do collect those and I had a sentimental attachment to it because of that stinkin' label that said Baltimore Release. It was a show that I would always remember. But once again at the urging of my friend, I decided to put it on ebay.

    Within a few days it sold for outrageous money. I paid off a small CC bill with it. Put some in the bank for the ANA Chicago trip and was going to use the rest for my 15 year anniversary vacation. The coin was sent out to the new lucky owner and off I went to enjoy a weekend away with the wife in Pittsburgh. Just as we saw our beloved Penguins get beat in overtime, I received a message thru ebay from the buyer that he wanted his money back immediately because there was a "smudge" on the inside of the NGC holder and this distracted from the coin. (Yes, he said that) Basically I knew what was going on.....the buyer had buyers remorse or at the least realized that he greatly overpaid for this coin. On top of getting this email, he files an immediate complaint with ebay which locked up my paypal account.

    The account was locked up because when a buyer files a report with ebay, they take the money that they paid you and put it on hold. Since I had moved most of the money out of the account, I was in the negative thus putting a lock down on my account until the balance was paid off. I know some of you will wonder why in the world would I touch the money until I knew that the buyer was completely happy. I used to do this in the past, but after 12 years of selling on ebay, I have never had a problem.....until now.

    Ok, so Im probably going to have to return this money to the buyer, but I wasn't going down without a fight since I knew why they were doing this. Come on, a smudge...really? This is common with slabs when you have plastic on plastic. If one piece is not completely flush with the other piece you get these small air pockets of sorts. If you just push down on the slab, it actually disappears. I called ebay to find out what my rights were as a seller. They passed me onto their high value claims team which deals with sales larger than 2 thousand dollars. They looked over my listing and even commented that it was set up really nice, but down at the bottom, I offered a 14 day return. I never used to offer a 14 day return, but since ebay changed their rules a while back, this is now the default for their listings. Below this is a box where I even typed that I only offer returns if the item is not 100% as described. I thought this covered me. Apparently not. I then used an example of someone buying x amount ounces of silver for x amount dollars and during shipping and subsequent 14 days, the price of silver drops. I said, are you telling me that you would support the buyer in this case even though this is a commodity and the price dropped. And their response was YES! As long as the return option on your ebay listing is selected, you are obligated to accept the return, no questions asked even if the buyer has buyers remorse (straight from the ebay rep). The ebay customer service rep was very empathetic to my situation, but that didn't help matters.

    So now I have a negative amount in my paypal account and I started the process of transferring money back over to the paypal account to cover the negative balance. In this process, I make a purchase on ebay and use paypal to pay for it. Big NO NO. When you do this, not only do they charge you for the item, but they charge you for the entire amount that you are negative. The account that I have tied into paypal is a small account that I use to pay for little things. My wife and I used it several times today and everything started bouncing. I immediately called up paypal and was raising heck about it because I never authorized them to charge my account for that amount. Since I used my mobile account to make the purchase, no warning came up. Im explaining to the paypal customer service rep that had I known about this, I would not have made a $20 purchase on paypal since all my overdraft fees are 5x this amount. She puts me on hold to talk with the mobile service rep who states that there absolutely is a warning. At this point its he said they said and she tells me that they cannot do anything to correct the problem on their end.

    So now Im on the phone with the bank trying to fix all the overdraft issues. Fortunately, I have a good bank and all the fees were waved....for now unless more charges come in.

    So what do I get for all my troubles other than a new ulcer. Well for starters, I am getting a coin back that was worth 4-5k a few weeks ago that is now worth 1.5k and a possible ding on my ebay account because we all know how these buyers are. Im trying to work it out with the buyer to have the slab fixed but I have not heard back from them.

    Ebay explains that as a seller, I have every right not to offer refunds and as long as I check the box that I don't offer a refund then I am fine. Their new policy is in place to protect the buyer, but if I chose not to honor a refund, ebay will make the refund themselves. That area where I typed that I don't accept refunds is for other details such as if you accept a return that you may charge a restocking fee or other comments such as that. If I had just changed that to no refunds, ebay would have sided with me and the seller would have had no recourse. Make sure you check the box!!! Also, how long do you have to keep the money in your account before taking it out???? Ebay says that buyers have 45 days to file a claim so the money should be available for this time. Lastly, if you do decide to use the money, then just make sure that you understand what paypal and ebay will do. If there is any negative balance on your account, it will be frozen until payment is made to balance up the account. If you make a purchase on ebay and use paypal, just know that they will charge not only for your purchase, but for the negative amount as well. So whatever account that is coming out of make sure that you have money to cover that expense.

    Does it suck to not have the money...heck yeah, but Im still smiling. I told my wife that I just have to laugh about this. I am back to ground zero and if things don't work out, I still have a very nice coin coming back to me. Life is full of bumps in the road. If your road is smooth then you are not living. Its important to learn from your mistakes and share what you learn so others can learn from them. Plus I feel better after typing all this too!

    For those of you who know the story of the Bridge Builder then I hope I helped. If you don't know the story then look here.... I had to memorize this when I pledged my fraternity.
    The Bridge Builder
    BY WILL ALLEN DROMGOOLE
    An old man going a lone highway,
    Came, at the evening cold and gray,
    To a chasm vast and deep and wide.
    Through which was flowing a sullen tide
    The old man crossed in the twilight dim,
    The sullen stream had no fear for him;
    But he turned when safe on the other side
    And built a bridge to span the tide.

    “Old man,” said a fellow pilgrim near,
    “You are wasting your strength with building here;
    Your journey will end with the ending day,
    You never again will pass this way;
    You’ve crossed the chasm, deep and wide,
    Why build this bridge at evening tide?”

    The builder lifted his old gray head;
    “Good friend, in the path I have come,” he said,
    “There followed after me to-day
    A youth whose feet must pass this way.
    This chasm that has been as naught to me
    To that fair-haired youth may a pitfall be;
    He, too, must cross in the twilight dim;
    Good friend, I am building this bridge for him!”
     
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  3. mlov43

    mlov43 주화 수집가

    I will make sure to check the "No Refunds" box. If I ever sell at ebay again...

    Thanks for the tip.
     
  4. CamaroDMD

    CamaroDMD [Insert Clever Title] Supporter

    Dude...that sucks. I'm sorry to hear you have had these troubles. But, try not to let it kill you. Money comes and money goes...life's too short to stress out. ;)
     
    TypicalCreepahx likes this.
  5. coingeek12

    coingeek12 Well-Known Member

    wow, so sorry! Why would someone complain about a smudge on the case to YOU? why not the grading company them selves? i mean, it was then that placed it there, and couldn't he see it from the pics??
     
    TypicalCreepahx likes this.
  6. Endeavor

    Endeavor Well-Known Member

    First and foremost, thank you for sharing this and for your willingness to help others.

    It would of been nice to have not had the coin returned, but as you said, life is not a smooth road and having a smooth road wouldn't really be living life to the fullest anyway. This post is the perfect example of what makes this forum great. This is definitely one of the best and most helpful posts I've read here. It should be nominated for post of the month or year - if there is such a thing.

    Lastly, I liked the Bridge Builder story. I will try to remember it.
     
    jaceravone likes this.
  7. Tater

    Tater Coin Collector

    good luck Joe sometimes ebay kicks your teeth in. I've been there not to the amount you are but I remember the pucker feeling as I did nothing wrong. Thanks I thought ebay required you to offer refunds, but that must be to be a top end seller that get discounts. If you check the box I always thought that it didn't matter to ebay as they would side with the seller and make you return it.
     
  8. josh's coins

    josh's coins Well-Known Member

    This is exactly why I stopped selling on ebay years ago. Buyers will scam you anyway they can. you just lost 3 grand because a buyer who bid on the coin decided to manipulate the system to screw you.

    Gotta hate people sometimes man. I'll stick to selling here on CT,Coin shows, club meetings etc...
     
    Mainebill and NOS like this.
  9. Kickindirt

    Kickindirt Member

    Dang huh, ebay is a love hate relationship for me also!
     
  10. statequarterguy

    statequarterguy Love Pucks

    Problem is, if you don't offer a refund, you won't get as many sales or bids.
     
    Kickindirt likes this.
  11. Kentucky

    Kentucky Supporter! Supporter

  12. Vegas Vic

    Vegas Vic Undermedicated psychiatric patient



    That sucks. I can understand how you would be pissed off. But I went through the issue from the other side. I bought a "unsearched" roll From Denver certified coin. On one side a 1909 s Lincoln on the other a s Indian reverse. I sent some of the coins to pcgs the 08 s ihc was counterfeit. The Lincoln of course not svdb. Also, the sides of the end coins on the inside were crap. I got him to refund $300 for the 08s ihc. During this time other unc ihc were pending. When all came back details cleaned I looked through a lot of his feedback. And I find he sold ANOTHER 1909 s Lincoln with s ihc reverse "unsearched" roll 1 year prior. So clearly the odds of finding two actually unsearched rolls with the same end coins is zero. So I just went back to eBay and they made him refund the rest of the money. He didn't, and then eBay gave me a full refund, putting me up $300 minus grading fees. And I don't feel bad that the guy selling bogus rolls took a loss. Given how much time of mine it took I still feel like sending the guy an invoice as my time bills well.

    I think that it is clear that your guy just wanted out. He paid 5k for a coin that dropped to 1k. (Ps one week or decade I still hold that graded moderns not error or varieties will do this 99% of the time. I even posted a good article from a coin mag on it )
    I get the guy wanted his money back. But if what you buy is exactly what is advertised then the buyer really should keep the coin. But as the saying goes one bad apple spoils the bunch and you basically took it in the shorts because Denver certified coin sold me counterfeit and snad items. Maybe you should send him an invoice as well. Because he is the reason you got screwed.
     
  13. Vegas Vic

    Vegas Vic Undermedicated psychiatric patient

    And I have no liable/slander concerns as I kept photos of the coins snad and counterfeit. I know the above post is strong language and serious accusations but you can't lose a suit if what you say is the truth and I have evidence to back my claims. My biggest regret is that because of the time frames I didn't get a chance to neg the guy.
     
  14. JPeace$

    JPeace$ Coinaholic

    Sorry to hear about your problem. I also think the buyer got remorseful and wanted to undo his/her purchase by coming up with a convoluted reason for the return.
     
  15. Sorry to hear that Joe. Sounds like you have a good attitude about it now though. I do not sell much on eBay and used to always offer returns, but now do not allow returns or refunds and explicitly state that in my descriptions. eBay favors the buyer, but they will find that this will change their environment and squeeze out the small sellers. They already have many fewer auctions, especially auctions starting at 99 cents. The site is being taken over by the big sellers with fixed price items, and there are not as many deals as in the past. Hope you get this straightened out. I am sure you will find someone at the Chicago show to buy that prized label. TC
     
  16. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast

    I'm sorry but that is just not true. E-Bay is by far the best way for a collector (or aspiring dealer) to sell coins. The buyer in this case did not manipulate the system, he simply availed himself of the 14 day return policy offered by the seller. In the process, Joe learned a valuable lesson about E-Bay. If you learn all of E-Bay's policies and pay attention to all of the details, you can successfully protect yourself from the scammers.

    You have made it well known that you want to venture into the coin dealing business. If you eliminate E-Bay from your business model, all you will accomplish is to eliminate the largest source of prospective buyers, thereby screwing yourself!
     
  17. sodude

    sodude Well-Known Member

    Was it an auction or BIN?
    There's a good chance the buyer would not have even bought the coin if the seller had a no returns policy.
     
  18. josh's coins

    josh's coins Well-Known Member

    Yeah I suppose you are right.
     
    Kentucky likes this.
  19. Westtexasbound

    Westtexasbound Active Member

    After a very detailed account all I see is a seller that made a lot of money but failed to make even MORE money. I still am waiting for my HOF coins. I can't believe anyone would pay even double the cost for these yet alone triple the price. Some that would pay 10 times is just crazy. I enjoy your war stories but it seems like this comes with the territory.
    None the less thanks for the heads up.
     
    Heater likes this.
  20. statequarterguy

    statequarterguy Love Pucks

    On eBay even a no return policy doesn’t protect the seller. All the buyer has to do is claim the item was not as described and eBay will refund the money and go after the seller.
     
    jloring likes this.
  21. jaceravone

    jaceravone Member

    Here are the pics that show the "smudge" in question.
    IMG_4223.JPG MCG_0108.JPG
     
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