Cud and die cracks..is this uncommon?

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I admit I only have the second edition of Grellman, but in it he makes no mention of cuds in an early die state. The only cud he mentions for the obv of 52 N-11 is the one that forms in the late state and it forms before the reverse cud forms and is present on all examples with rev cud. He does say the obv cud can be faint and hard to see at times.

Sometimes you can. If the cud is a rim cud and very shallow it would be possible to put the die back in the lathe and shave the rim down. (effectively making the rim a little higher.) So it could be possible to remove a rim cud. Think of it like a die chip in the field. Grind down the field and the chip goes away. Grind down the field too much and some of the design goes away As in a buffalos foreleg. (You've just "fixed" a hole in the die.) Would they go to that kind of trouble? I don't think so.

 

I can easily see the mint "helping" the die by shaving
down a rim cud. Then they'd open the gap between
the die and the collar making a small problem into
something else more obvious.

 

"I'm from the machine shop. I'm here to help."

 

It could be in the second edition he does not make that claim. The most recent edition makes the claim and lists two obverse cuds, which at the time of publication I believe each only had one example known. I believe I have another example of a different obverse cud, but I will know more in a couple weeks.

 

You're shaving in the wrong direction. I'm not reducing the diameter making the rim thinner, I'm making the rim higher. So the gap between the die and the collar would not change.

 

Gotta go with Doug on this one.

 

The cud would be at junction of the die surface and
the rim. So cutting it down lowers the relief which
makes the rims higher? Please say yes. I don't want to
make an incursion into **** to look for my Plaid
book. ;D

 

Thanks Doug. I understand about coins and dies
working opposite to each other but I just
can't visualize it with rims. I'm just going to
have to get the Plaid book out.

 

BTW, I know you guys are right. If you take
the rim down on the die the opposite
should happen on coins. It just drives me
freaking nuts when I can't visualize something.

 

Btw gbroke, I would correct your original question. Cuds and die cracks occur on cracked dies, not necessarily worn ones. A crack can occur any time.

A friend collects shatter die coins, trying to get coins struck with as much damage to it as possible. He has a mercury dime, (34 I believe), that looks like a fresh die. The reverse is partially full bands, (where the opposite die struck well, but the obverse has like 6 major cracks. Sometimes die just shatter when put in service, so it never has anything to do with wear.

 

For clarification, here is a picture of the coin with rim cud, the lines up to the right from the inner curl combined with the date position are attribution points for the N11 obverse die. This coin does not have the rim break on the reverse above TES, but no coins with the break at TES has this obverse rim break below 852, so there is no clear die failure sequence. The only two options I can think of is either the die was fixed, or my coin is a new variety, a late stage obverse of N11 paired with a different reverse die.


The other two obverse rim cuds are noted as shallow in the Grellman book I have.

 

It does look like a later state of N-11 than listed in the second edition.

Longnine, a design cud is at the junction of the die field and edge. It may or may not include the rim of the coin A rim cud is at the junction of the top surface of the rim and the neck of the die and does not intrude into the field. The problem is to visualize what the die looks like.

Imagine the die sitting on its base with the die face parallel to the ground. The field of the die forms a flat upper surfaces. Now lets say you are 2 mm tall and you are standing on the die face. Walk over to the edge of the die and look down. A short way down there is another flat horizontal surface. That surface is what forms the flat top surface of the rim of the coin. Lets jump down there. OK now walk over to the edge again and look down. Now what you see is a long drop. That is the neck of the die that fits inside the collar.

Now if the edge junction of the field of the die and that vertical drop down to this ledge we are standing on chips away you will have a cud in the field that doesn't include the rim. If the edge chip is shallow polishing the face of the die could make it disappear. If it chips all the way down here to the ledge it may look on the coin like it includes the rim because there will be no visual division. (That you can't fix because if you polish the die face that much there won't be any design left.)

If the edge of this ledge and the neck of the die chips away then the coin will have a raised lump on the rim but it won't affect the field of the die. That is a rim cud. Now if that rim cud isn't deep you could recut this die so that the distance from the field down to this ledge is a little greater and get rid of the rim cud or at least make it even shallower and weaker.

And of course the die could crack and a piece fall out that includes the die face, drop, ledge, neck and maybe even part of the shank or body of the die. In that case you have a full cud and that die is toast.

 

Talk about screwing up. I wasn't
thinking in opposites. I was seeing
the die rim as it would be on a coin
rather than a step down. Thank you
Condor. It makes perfect sense now.

That was quite an llustration too. You
should be teaching some of those seminars
at the ANA.
Thanks again!