Coolest Thing To Walk In The Store This Week *World & Ancient Edition*

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by LostDutchman, Dec 7, 2013.

  1. LostDutchman

    LostDutchman Under Staffed & Overly Motivated Supporter

    I have a similar thread in the US section. I figured I'd start a thread about the cool world and ancient things that come into the store.

    Enjoy!

    These came in today.

    IMG_9899.JPG IMG_9903.JPG IMG_9904.JPG IMG_9905.JPG IMG_9906.JPG
    IMG_9901.JPG IMG_9902.JPG
     
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  3. spirityoda

    spirityoda Coin Junky

    those coins are so amazing. thanks for the eye candy. wow these are great.
     
  4. TIF

    TIF Always learning.

    I know nothing about these but WOW, especially the first one.
     
  5. BigTee44

    BigTee44 Well-Known Member

    What kind of prices do coins like this bring? Wouldn't mind one in my collection.
     
  6. LostDutchman

    LostDutchman Under Staffed & Overly Motivated Supporter

    These 3 coins are in the $450 - $1,000 range each.
     
  7. BigTee44

    BigTee44 Well-Known Member

    This explains why I don't have one yet. LOL.

    Thought they cent cents, just realized they were dollars.

    Very nice coins though! Love the color on the 1831!
     
  8. Treashunt

    Treashunt The Other Frank

    BigTee:
    Here is where a penny is the correct term. :)
    D= Penny, as in DWT = Pennyweight
    Matt:

    Okay, I'm selling the house and moving to your town!
     
    LostDutchman likes this.
  9. vlaha

    vlaha Respect. The. Hat.

    I believe the first coin is one of the "cartwheels" made by Matthew Bolton, a industrialist in Soho (?) England.
     
  10. LostDutchman

    LostDutchman Under Staffed & Overly Motivated Supporter

    Go ahead Frank...

    I'll put you to work. ;)
     
  11. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    OK Matt, I know what I think happened with that first coin, but tell me what you think happened !
     
    TJC likes this.
  12. YOC

    YOC Well-Known Member

    What are the deposits on the bust of the cartwheel penny? It has a nice reverse.
     
  13. stevex6

    stevex6 Random Mayhem

    Amazing coins, LostDutchman ...

    => bravo, dude ... bravo!!
     
  14. Mat

    Mat Ancient Coincoholic

    Those are some edited coins. Ill take the 1797 :D *in a dream*
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 22, 2014
  15. YOC

    YOC Well-Known Member

    My favourite by far is the William IIII, superb sir, superb!
     
  16. LostDutchman

    LostDutchman Under Staffed & Overly Motivated Supporter

    Doug,

    I was thinking it was struck with rusted dies...

    Your thought?
     
  17. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    These are ordinarily too modern for me but still very appealing.
    I wonder if everyone that sees these will realize that the quoted price is 99% due to the extreme condition. Cartwheels are available at low prices if you can put up with wear, nicks (some sizeable!) and even graffiti. The copper was so soft that just falling from the die and landing on another coin would ruin perfection. Mine (a bit of a ringer since it is a 2d) was in a bin of culls all being sold for less than 10% of the $450 price. The worst were holed and engraved with initials for under $10.
    v00700bb2508.jpg
    While discussing the texture on the obverse, would you also comment on the wire edge on the reverse left? Is this standard for high grade coins?
     
  18. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    I forgot to ask: Is there an explanation for the use of a colon after D in the legend rather than a single dot?
     
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  19. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Matt - that's a bit more than rusted I would think. Typically a rusted die usually results in small patches of bumps and dimples is some areas. This coin however has a much more uniform and pervasive scaling effect on the obv device and rim, but only on the obv device and rim. And that presents us with paradox.

    Picture this scenario, were the cause liquid getting on the die and causing rust it makes sense that the liquid would settle in the low places on the die. That would be the device (the bust), and the legends.

    But when we look at the coin the device shows signs of the die corroding in that area, but yet the field (the high point of the central portion of the die) is completely clean and smooth. That would seemingly be logical. But that part only partially makes sense when you consider the following.

    When we look at the wide rim the rim itself shows the corrosion of the die but the letters of the legend are completely clean and smooth. This is the exact opposite of what happened to the central part of the coin. The letters would be the low places on the die where you would expect moisture/liquid to settle and corrode, and the rim would be the high point of that portion of the die, but lower than the fields. So any liquid that fell on the coin would settle in the central device and roll off the fields and onto the rim, and then settle into the letters. But not a single letter shows any sign of rust or corrosion being present on the die. Instead the rim, the high point of that section of the die itself shows corrosion.That doesn't make sense at all.

    On one portion of the coin we see signs of corrosion being in the low point of the die. In the other portion we see signs of corrosion on a higher portion of the die and none at all in the low portion. And the corrosion we see is completely different than we would typically see on any rusted die. Instead of small bumps and dimples we see flat, broad scaling and a generally rough surface texture right next to smooth, unblemished areas. So how did this happen ?

    The only thing that makes sense to me is this. The die was finished and sitting waiting to be used. It got wet and the entire thing rusted, and badly so. When the mint workers came to use the die they saw it's condition and said this will never do. So they took the die and re-polished it, removing almost all signs of corrosion from the fields, the high point of the die. But when polishing that's all you can polish, the high point of the die. This left the corrosion on the low points. They couldn't do much about the device, the bust. But the legends they could improve by carefully re-punching them deeper than they were originally, thus smoothing out and effectively removing the corrosion in the legends.

    Am I right in my thinking ? I dunno, but it's the only scenario I can think of that makes sense and explains the paradoxical condition of the coin.

    There is one other thing that goes along with my theory, and it is explained by Doug's question regarding the wire edge on the reverse. That wire edge is what is called finning and it only occurs when a coin is struck with excessive pressure. And since the mint workers knew the die was worked and that fields were polished away so they were lower than would be normal, they intentionally adjusted the striking pressure upwards when they used this die to make up for it.

    So Matt, a rusted die ? Yeah, but I'd say a heavily corroded die that was re-worked before use. Something that is highly unusual. And I don't think I've ever even seen it before. But it's the only thing that makes sense.
     
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  20. THCoins

    THCoins Well-Known Member

    Wow ! these are great coins. On this side of the pond in mainland Europe one can encounter these still frequently for reasonable prices. But not in this state.
    Only the William is a bit to dark for my liking, doesn't resemble the circulation type much more in my opinion. I have specimen of all of these three, but all in the working class category (and price). Here's my Penny. Surface flaws are a bit exaggerated in the photo. It is quite nice in hand but does have the scars from it's working life.
    GIIIPcartwheel.jpg

    And the 1806 one: GIIIP1806.jpg
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2013
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  21. YOC

    YOC Well-Known Member

    I found two of these in the same hole last week metal detecting! They are commonly used in the UK as old scale weights, being 1oz.
     
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