Cleaned coins?

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by fretboard, Jun 21, 2010.

  1. Stang1968

    Stang1968 Member

    1. Yes, I avoid cleaned coins likle the plague, I made the mistake of buying some when I was much younger, and also of harshly cleaning some of my own, and regret it now.

    2. Hard for me to answer this, but I would only offer 50% of the listed value of a problem free coin, and maybe even less.

    3. I would only consider a cleaned coin if it's a key to the series, but even then I'm on the fence. When i want to sell it later on, I would not expect to make a profit on it.

    Read more: http://www.cointalk.com/t114758/#ixzz1tMop92DK
     
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  3. Another blast from the past post. In the area I collect, I don't care how much of an expert you may think you are, it's hard to determine completely original surfaces on all coins from 150 years ago.
     
  4. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    There is no difference. And that's why so many people get confused over the issue.

    In common usage, ordinary conversation if you will, when somebody uses the word "cleaned", what they really mean is harshly or improperly (either is correct) cleaned.

    When NGC slabs a harshly cleaned coin, they say Improperly Cleaned on the slab label.

    http://images.ha.com/lf?source=url%5bfile%3aimages%2finetpub%2fnewnames%2f300%2f7%2f6%2f0%2f9%2f7609127.jpg%5d%2ccontinueonerror%5btrue%5d&scale=size%5b220x350%5d%2coptions%5blimit%5d&source=url%5bfile%3aimages%2finetpub%2fwebuse%2fno_image_available.gif%5d%2cif%5b%28%27global.source.error%27%29%5d&sink=preservemd%5btrue%5d


    W
    hen PCGS slabs a harshly cleaned coin, they label it Cleaning, and use the code 92 in the slab number.

    http://images.ha.com/lf?source=url%5bfile%3aimages%2finetpub%2fnewnames%2f300%2f7%2f8%2f4%2f5%2f7845283.jpg%5d%2ccontinueonerror%5btrue%5d&scale=size%5b220x350%5d%2coptions%5blimit%5d&source=url%5bfile%3aimages%2finetpub%2fwebuse%2fno_image_available.gif%5d%2cif%5b%28%27global.source.error%27%29%5d&sink=preservemd%5btrue%5d

    B
    ut in the definition for code 92 that PCGS uses, they say -

    92|N-2 Cleaned – surface damage due to a harsh, abrasive cleaning

    So like I said, in ordinary conversation, cleaned and harshly/improperly cleaned mean exactly the same thing.

    And that's why the problem, confusion over the definition of the word cleaned even exist. It's because people do not use the correct or proper terminology. There are two different terms - cleaned, and harshly cleaned. And they do not mean the same thing, but people use them as if they did.

    A dipped coin is a cleaned coin. A conserved coin is a cleaned coin. A coin soaked in water, or soaked in acetone, or xylene, is a cleaned coin. But they are not "harshly cleaned" coins.

    A coin being harshly cleaned is the problem.

    A coin being cleaned is not a problem.
     
  5. Kentucky

    Kentucky Supporter! Supporter

    If you can't tell, it ain't cleaned.
     
  6. Hunt1

    Hunt1 Active Member

    A lot of old coins were cleaned that can still be passed off as not cleaned...
     
  7. Silverhouse

    Silverhouse Well-Known Member

    I once had a coin shop tell me that collectors prefer dipped coins and in some cases cleaned. I just let him talk and decided not to take my coins into him. The last thing I want any coin shop or dealer do is clean my perfectly original non cleaned coin, or dip it to get the toning off. He also said most collectors hate toning. The coin in question is my GSA 1883CC Morgan. I was silently awestruck as he told me all that he would do to my coin. I understand in some series one may not be able to get around a cleaned specimen. But to me a true collector wouldn't want a dipped or cleaned coin, whether done professionally or not. There are exceptions to the rule of course. As I said, if said specimen one was trying to get was only available for the most part cleaned. Either that or willing to pay some high prices for original untouched ones. I myself prefer uncleaned coins.
     
  8. quartermaster

    quartermaster New Member

    Yes I prefer an uncleaned coin in most cases as well, however when a coin is over a hundred years old, it could have been cleaned 99 years ago, who knows! I generally look for eye appeal. If the coin appeals to me and I want it for my collection, then who cares if it was cleaned during the last century.
     
  9. Kentucky

    Kentucky Supporter! Supporter

    [​IMG] Originally Posted by Kentucky [​IMG]
    If you can't tell, it ain't cleaned.



    If you don't know, how would you know?
     
  10. kangayou

    kangayou Junior Member

    When selling raw uncertified coins that you do not know the complete history of , it might be best to state "may have been cleaned". I say this because there are some collectors that buy with the intent of submitting the coin for grading.
     
  11. Kentucky

    Kentucky Supporter! Supporter

    So you should do this for all coins that did not come directly from the mint?
     
  12. quartermaster

    quartermaster New Member

    I disagree, it should be understood by everyone in our hobby that any coin not sealed by the mint where they were made, "may have been cleaned". I say it goes back to eye appeal. If you don't like the way it looks don't buy it. My experience with grading companies is not that great, and I really don't care what some unknown person sitting behind a desk somewhere with a loop thinks about a coin. I only opinion that matters in my collection is my opinion and the only opinion that should matter is yours is yours opinion
     
  13. kangayou

    kangayou Junior Member

    Especially if you suspect that the color or surface look unnatural. You have nothing to lose by stating that the coin's history is unknown to you and that it may have been cleaned at some point in time. This way you set your potential customer's expectations.
     
  14. buddy16cat

    buddy16cat Well-Known Member

    Many coins with precious metal content have been reduced to bullion since their value is all in their metal content. In that case, who cares if it is cleaned. Doesn't bother me none, I could get a bargain too.
     
  15. Cherd

    Cherd Junior Member Supporter

    Clean!..Harshly!!..Properly!!...Conservation!!!....Clean!!...Clean!!...Clean!!.....ARRGGGHH! Sometimes I feel as though I belong to a hobby community that is less interested in coins and more interested in the art of determining whether something has been cleaned. It's only a big deal because we have all been brainwashed into thinking that we need to make a big deal out of it!

    Quartermaster is right, the focus should be more on personal preference. Look at a coin, if the coin appeals to you and you are comfortable with the price then buy it, if not then don't. It is your collection, the items in the collection should be based on what appeals to you. Of course, we would all prefer to have completely original state, zero tarnish coins that look like they just rolled out of the mint yesterday (I suppose those that like fancy rainbow toning would be an exception). But when it comes to older coins this typically just isn't possible. You can either develop an appreciation for toning in pursuit of original surfaces ("original surface" is debatable on multiple levels), or you can seek coins that "look" as ideal as possible (these would be cleaned coins). There is no right or wrong approach, it all depends on what YOU want to have.

    I also do not agree with grading services "body bagging" coins. By doing this they are forcing their biased opinions (or the biased opinions of the most vocal collectors) onto the collecting community as a whole. If someone pays good money to have a coin graded, then the coin should receive the same attention as any other. The purpose of the grading services is to provide accurate and consistent descriptions of coin condition. In the case of a cleaned coin a numerical grade should be assigned, and a description of suspected cleaning activities should be provided as details. This description should not include adverbs such as "improperly" because this word represents an opinion. An appropriate description could be: AU-55 Details: whizzed, artificially toned. This actually provides the potential buyer with useful, un-biased information.

    I feel that some of us need to put a bit more thought into how we word our advice to those seeking information with respect to cleaned coins. For instance, the statement "It is always more desirable to have a coin with original surfaces" is simply not correct. Maybe for you, or maybe for most, but not for all. It is more accurate to say "cleaning a coin tends to decrease the value in today's market", or "most current collectors prefer coins that have not been cleaned".

    The aversion to cleaned coins represents the opinions of SOME collectors. This opinion was not overly prevalant in the past, and it may not be as prevalant in the future. Stop making statements about coin cleaning as though these rules are based on natural laws. They are opinions and should be presented as such.
     
  16. quartermaster

    quartermaster New Member

    AMEND CHERD! I couldn't have said it better! And speaking of grading services body bagging coins as improperly cleaned, I have noticed NGC now sends a notice in the body bag that they have a cleaning service next door to their grading service, that can "properly clean" your coin for a SMALL fee so that you can spend another fee to resubmit your coin to be graded for which you paid the first fee! But hey I guess they have to make money to pay their bills too!
     
  17. buddy16cat

    buddy16cat Well-Known Member

    I had a wheat penny go through the laundry

    Is that improperly cleaned? I am sure many circulated coins got wet somewhere or washed you just don't know it. I know that someone here stated that they could tell I dipped my coins in alcohol and distilled water because of things that were on the coin already, some kind of green stuff. Looking at the coins I did this to I don't see any difference besides the grit and dirt on coins I didn't do that to. I prefer coins without grit and dirt but like toned coins over those with the toning removed but if it is removed and the coin was close to melt, I would buy it as bullion just like I would a toned, common coin in G/VG - VF condition that is still worth melt.
     
  18. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    quartermaster, cherd - just as a point of info, the TPGs stopped body-bagging coins about 5 years ago.
     
  19. Cherd

    Cherd Junior Member Supporter

    I guess it is a matter of semantics. They stopped sending coins back in a bag labeled ungradable (the origination of the term). Now they send them back in a slab labeled ungradable, or with grade approximation and undefined details. People also refer to the latter as "body bagged", and this is the practice that I am referring to.
     
  20. quartermaster

    quartermaster New Member

    I got one back in July 2011 in a plastic bag, ungraded. Guess someone forgot to inform NGC to stop body bagging.
     
  21. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    There is only one reason they will do that, that's if the coin has PVC contamination on it. Otherwise, both NGC and PCGS slab problem coins and do not use the body-bags anymore, and haven't for about 5 years.
     
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