You're the grader

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by Insider, May 25, 2022.

?

What would you do?

Poll closed May 27, 2022.
  1. It is common modern junk. Let it go out as a 68.

    4 vote(s)
    10.0%
  2. Net grade the coin down to 66-67.

    8 vote(s)
    20.0%
  3. Net grade the coin to 64-65.

    7 vote(s)
    17.5%
  4. Net the coin down below MS-65.

    2 vote(s)
    5.0%
  5. grade the coin MS - Details.

    19 vote(s)
    47.5%
  1. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    This poll is fictional. THERE ARE NO WRONG ANSWERS SO POST YOUR OPINION for further discussion. That's because You-are-the-Grader. o_O

    A Jefferson nickel passing through the grading room is a naked-eye gem plus. It is slabbed with a MS-68 label when it reaches your desk for QC.

    You note:

    Contact marks: Virtually none but you see 3-4 miniscule if you look hard enough = MS-67.
    Hairlines: None under magnification = MS-70
    Luster: Blazing & fully original. No rub or breaks = MS-70
    Eye Appeal: Exceptional = MS-69

    Then you see this and identify it as Mint made (from Mint Set):

    IMG_7886.JPG
     
    Kentucky likes this.
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  3. Randy Abercrombie

    Randy Abercrombie Supporter! Supporter

    This is the problem with the Sheldon scale in my mind. Eye appeal does not enter into the picture.... I know I am looking at a magnified image, but whether that occurred at the US mint or not has no bearing.... And I say that knowing that I am being factious... However I absolutely couldn't in good conscience five that piece anything better than the lowest possible MS grade.... But then that's why I'll never be a grader either.
     
  4. Dave Waterstraat

    Dave Waterstraat Well-Known Member

    If it's in a mint set it was dropped on the floor, stepped on and skid along the floor before the mint employee picked it up from under their shoe...
     
    wxcoin likes this.
  5. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    That is correct. There is no specific mention of eye appeal associated with that system. The Sheldon Scale has not been used to grade coins for at least fifty years except by Copper collectors. It was too strict for the commercial market. What remains of it in general use are the numbers associated with the grade.

    Actually not. This specific characteristic is 100% Mint made. Folks who break out coins from their original Mint packing will recognize it. There are many Mint made marks on coins (example: adjustment marks) that DO HAVE a bearing on things like grades/value/desirability.

     
    MIGuy likes this.
  6. Randy Abercrombie

    Randy Abercrombie Supporter! Supporter

    I learned something today. I thought our grading scale was the Sheldon scale. Thanks, Insider.
     
    MIGuy likes this.
  7. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    :( Nope. ;)
     
  8. potty dollar 1878

    potty dollar 1878 Well-Known Member

    MS details,despite the coin being nearly flawless I find the anomaly to be to distracting overall,even for a severe down grade.
     
    Insider likes this.
  9. expat

    expat Remember you are unique, just like everyone else Supporter

    I would leave it as a MS 68. No hairlines, blazing luster and miniscule marks seem to outweigh the negative eye appeal of the mint error.
     
    MIGuy likes this.
  10. justafarmer

    justafarmer Senior Member

    The marks on this coin appear to have been created after the coin was struck. Whether created @ the Mint or not has no bearing. Contact marks are Mint made. But don't think the marks are serious enough damage to cause a details grade.
     
  11. Hommer

    Hommer Curator of Semi Precious Coinage Supporter

    Feeder finger more than likely.
     
  12. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    :oops::sorry: FORGOT THIS: Coin has flawless 6 Full Steps.

    There is a difference between an actual Mint Error and PMD that occurred to the piece while it was still inside the Mint building. So, with a guide price of roughly $400+ dollars for an MS-68 FS condition rarity, would you back up your opinion and pay $50 for this damaged Mint Set crap? $25? If not, you may wish to refine your standards because if you would even go down to $10 each, I'll bet the guys on CT could break your bank account with coins as this. :D

    See my comments above. Let's let the novice collector think he is getting a great deal - way undervalued at the moment - until he goes to sell it.:(
     
  13. Publius2

    Publius2 Well-Known Member

    I initially voted to net grade the coin down to 66-67 but I am changing my opinion to MS-Details. I don't know how to change my vote in the poll.

    First, I am accepting at face value your pronouncement that the reverse marks are "mint made". But the only way this kind of damage (and I am assuming it is damage that was caused by handling within the mint) can result in a straight grade is if the coin reflects what was part of the actual coin-striking process. I don't think this damage reflects what was on the dies nor an artifact of the coin-striking process but since I don't know what caused this, I stand ready to be corrected.

    Second, the fact that the marks are "mint made" (whatever that means) is largely meaningless. Whether the marks are contact marks occurring in the mint or damaging scrapes that occurred in the mint, these are still detractors from the perfect grade of 70. Obviously, planchet striations, die polishing lines and the like are as-struck artifacts of the coin-striking process and while meriting grade reductions do not merit a details grade. But if it's post-minting damage within the mint, then it's still damage.

    Just a little criticism of your method here as being unfair to everyone not in the know. Since some of us haven't a clue what caused these markings and you haven't told us and your description of "mint-made" is so ambiguous as to be meaningless, I am forced to guess, not deduce. Let me give you an example of what I mean: Adjustment marks on early American silver coinage are "mint-made" and if you didn't know what they were pretty much anyone would assume that they were damage that would reduce the grade or even details-grade the coin. But once you know what adjustment marks are, you understand that they are legitimate artifacts of the coin-making process and while deserving of a reduction in grade, are not deserving of a details grade.
     
    ksparrow, halfcent1793 and Insider like this.
  14. charley

    charley Well-Known Member

    I don't and never have graded from photos/pictures. Therefore, I can not and will not vote, even fictional polls and definitely not from a partial photo.

    Truth in editing: changed 'for' to 'from'.
     
  15. atcarroll

    atcarroll Well-Known Member

    Personally, i details grade it. Even if it was damaged at the mint, it looks like it was damaged after it was struck. Damage is damage. My position on it might get me in an argument with fellow graders if i worked for a TPG, but I'm not budging.
     
    Insider likes this.
  16. spirityoda

    spirityoda Coin Junky

  17. expat

    expat Remember you are unique, just like everyone else Supporter

    If I had known it had 6 FS my opinion would be a lot different, as would more peoples I think. It doesn't deserve a conditional rarity grade with the mint damage. The poll now has no use as people will be changing their opinion. Also, I misread/misunderstood your opening statement. I am down to MS 64 or less, but not as low as AU
     
  18. Dave Waterstraat

    Dave Waterstraat Well-Known Member

    My comment was a SWAG (with humor injected) based on your word that this subject coin left the mint in that condition in a sealed mint set. My opinion is that it's a details coin even though it left the mint as pictured regardless of what caused this at the mint.
     
  19. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    Publius2, posted: "Just a little criticism of your method here as being unfair to everyone not in the know."

    Professor, your :bookworm: entire post is excellent! We are all (me too)"not in the know." :D

    Publius2 continued: "Since some of us haven't a clue what caused these markings and you haven't told us and your description of "mint-made" is so ambiguous as to be meaningless, I am forced to guess, not deduce."

    Poll answers don't mater. The outcome of opinions after the discussion ends is important - no matter which each of us takes. As you and others have suggested, that DAMAGE on the coin, from whatever the cause, deserves a "Details" grade because it is damage although it occurred at the Mint (Mint made).

    Publius2 continued: "Let me give you an example of what I mean: Adjustment marks on early American silver coinage are "mint-made" and if you didn't know what they were pretty much anyone would assume that they were damage that would reduce the grade or even details-grade the coin. But once you know what adjustment marks are, you understand that they are legitimate artifacts of the coin-making process and while deserving of a reduction in grade, are not deserving of a details grade."

    Yes, that's what is important about discussions on CT. We all learn things that make us more knowledgeable. Makes posting puzzles worth the time. Best of all for me, I've eliminated :stop: :muted: the ":stinkyfeet::clown: Eight." :D
     
    Kentucky and jamor1960 like this.
  20. justafarmer

    justafarmer Senior Member

    Contact/bag marks are also damage yet don't cause a coin to receive a details grade. My thought/assumption is the marks on the OP coin must not be very distracting being you are reviewing a coin initially graded MS-68 by a co-worker.
     
  21. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    expat, posted: "If I had known it had 6 FS my opinion would be a lot different, as would more peoples I think. It doesn't deserve a conditional rarity grade with the mint damage. [Of course not but a slab from a top TPGS labeled 68 or 68 FS would make it a condition rarity. That's the point! As a grader, do you let it out, net grade it, or detail it?] The poll now has no use [:eek:o_O??] as people will be changing their opinion. Also, I misread/misunderstood your opening statement. I am down to MS 64 or less, but not as low as AU. [Good! because only EAC net graders grade full MS copper AU because of a defect!!! :facepalm::wacky::vomit: Once a coin is determined to be MS nothing will make it AU. All you can do is lower its MS grade as far down as 60 or change its value. Put a hole in it and it is MS details w/a hole!:smuggrin:]

    Dave Waterstraat, posted: "My comment was a SWAG (with humor injected) based on your word that this subject coin left the mint in that condition in a sealed mint set. My opinion is that it's a details coin even though it left the mint as pictured regardless of what caused this at the mint."

    EXACTLY!
     
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