You LOSE some (eBay bad-picture gambles)

As I was prowling for sniping opportunities, I found this auction:

$4.00 FACE IN SILVER LOT

I won at $129.05 plus $5 shipping; I'd set my snipe a good bit higher on the basis of that 1898-S half in the foreground, which appeared to have AU details, with perhaps some luster around the edges.

When the lot arrived and I saw the half in-hand, my reaction was an immediate "what the...?"



The color was an odd sort of yellowish-brown, and there was no luster at all, almost as if there were a layer of clay dust on the coin. I took the coin out into direct sun, and the surface looked reflective but grainy, almost like it was illuminated with laser light.

As I started looking more closely, I noticed other issues. The date was odd, and some of the details were -- well, is this what you call "mushy"? Look especially at the bases of the "T"s, and the top of the right curve on "S".




The reverse has similar problems; here's a closeup of the mint mark area.



I did a (very careful) ring test, and it didn't sound like other silver halves, but it didn't exactly sound like anything else I tried (clad and 40%).

I did the magnet test, and it wiggled the magnet, but not nearly as much as other 90% silver coins.

I weighed it, and it came in at 12.87 grams, significantly above the expected range -- this was on a scale that gave weights between 12.27 and 12.71 for 20 2002-S silver halves, with an average of 12.55 and standard deviation of 0.1. It's definitely too heavy, which is odd, since most fakes are underweight.

Finally, I looked closely at that "spot of gunk" on the shield. It's actually a cavity, revealing some sort of dark material.

I wondered if this might be a contemporary counterfeit cast from lead, but its edge actually looks pretty good, with no seam and nice, square divisions.

So, I'm a bit stumped as to exactly what kind of fake this is, but I'm pretty sure it's a fake, and I'm not willing to pay 60-odd dollars (my final price, minus the estimated value of the rest of the lot) to keep it.

I'm trying to decide whether to contact the seller directly, or whether to just go ahead and raise a SNAD case. I don't see any evidence that this seller is trying to pull something (like the loser who sold me a fake 1920-s half a few years ago), so I'm inclined to go the gentle route; any opinions?

 

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I would contact the seller, that is a pretty good fake. At first I thought it a different coin than the pictures but the chin confirmed it is the same.

 

Yeah, the others were run-of-the mill worn Barbers and a 1921-P Morgan, nothing out of the ordinary.

I wish I had access to one of the ray-gun composition analyzers. I'm really curious what this actually is made of -- it's odd that the weight is so close, and off in the direction it is. Electromagnetically, though, it's really not behaving like silver, more like clad.

 

When you wrote of and posted the link recently, I thought the coin looked "off", and now with the above photos, I see why. I suppose it was worth a shot and do not blame you in the least for trying.

 

That's a frighteningly good fake, especially to see it in a junk lot where authenticity is rarely questioned. Almost like it was planted.....
I'd give the seller the benefit of the doubt and I'm sure they'll act surprised, but it might be good to watch their future listings closely.

 

It is a good practice to ALWAYS contact the seller directly. Opening a case should always be a last resort.

 

I've encountered cases of obvious, deliberate fraud where I went directly to a case, but yes, I almost always prefer to work things out with the seller first.

If this is a "frighteningly good" fake, I'm beginning to wonder whether there's a chance I've misdiagnosed it. I'm fairly confident that it's failed the magnet test and the ring test, but I'm not sure I'm confident enough to throw away the several hundred dollars a legit coin would represent. I just figured that between those two, the weird surface texture and color, the overweight, and the odd features, I didn't have much confidence left in the coin.

So, based on what I've posted here, is everybody confident that this is a fake -- or do I need to take it or send it to an expert?

 

There is too much doubt in my mind to roll the dice. I would send it back.

 

The scammers are getting better every day, but with my limited knowledge on fakes I think you called it. They obviously used a real coin to cast it, that's why it even has the reeded edge gashes from another coin hitting it between her chin & the stars. Never have seen a fake Barber, but between the weight disparity, the odd black chips and weak-ish strike, I'd send it right back. Every good fake I've seen has a rough rim too and an outer line which just looks like a shifted collar, but I think that's the mold line. Can't figure out how they can replicate luster so well with a cast-job though.

 

I am not good enough to know, but I would contact the seller and let them know just in case. Maybe some experts will chime in and such.

I bought an Israeli silver coin once that I was sure was fake. I contacted the seller and ended up returning it to him because he wanted it back to check it. To this day I wonder if it was fake (Failed ring test bad). Looking back I would have rather kept it as an interesting piece ($8) is a lot different than $200, but you paid spot so that is around $10 unless I misunderstood.

 

I paid $134 for a 1921 Morgan and 6 Barbers, $4 face -- that's more than twice melt at today's prices. The Morgan's worth whatever a lightly circulated 1921 Morgan is worth ($20?), and the other Barbers are worth a bit more than melt. Even making generous assumptions about the rest of the lot (and I try not to be generous when I'm buying), I'm into this 98-S for $60 or so. If it really is a noteworthy fake, the sort that could provide valuable information to dealers or other collectors, I'd consider hanging on to it.

The gashes actually look legit, although given those black pits I suspect actual gashes might look different on this coin. I can't really talk about whether they break the luster, because this coin doesn't have any, just a weird grainy texture -- no flow lines visible, and when I zoom all the way in with my current rig I can usually see them. (They appear to show up in my photos of the 3CN that I covered in a separate thread.)

 

Well I would contact the seller and let them know just in case. Do you have an expert that could see it in hand near you?

 

I would contact the seller as others' above mentioned and get a refund in full. After he pays you tell him which coin is fake. That's how I would do it. Of course you can do it either way.

 

It IS good practice. I just sold an MS '82-P 'No P' Roosie......raw. The buyer ('would-be' buyer at the time), seemed very friendly, asked for more images, which he got. The BIN/BO was settled last Sat night, shipped Mon, and it was received Wed am. Friday morn, I check 'My ebay', only to discover he opened a claim Fri at 8:41am, no contacting me directly. I specifically stated in a message (that eBay's CSR's could see) that "if there are any issues/questions, PLEASE contact me IMMEDIATELY, as I'm not satisfied unless YOU are" (and I mean that...I try to provide the best service possible). I responded to his claim 74 minutes after he opened the claim, telling him to send it back and I would gladly refund his money. No response from him since. His reason for claim: "This coin, to me, looks to be AU58". In my description, I noted "no full bands, not a 'gem' Roosie, just a solid MS coin". Called ebay, and they are actually in my corner, seeing all my communications with him (5.0 DSR for communication, 4.9 for 'as described'), and they told me exactly what to do, and where he did not contact me first, per ebay's 'suggestion', if he decides to neg me, my chances at getting it removed, as he jumped right to a claim, are 99% in my favor.

To avoid unnecessary bullcrap, always try to work it out with seller before opening a claim. Buyers like this one, everyone can do without. As long as you stand by your product and offer a refund, there is no reason to have a claim opened, which is a 'black mark' and stays with you. To this moment, I still don't know what's going on, but he has 23 days to 'play this game', yet I have only 3 days to refund him when item is returned. I hope he knows he MUST provide tracking, or the claim is automatically found in favor of seller, and a neg is 100% guaranteed removed. Some buyers....

 

I agree with you 100%. The other thing I dislike is that EBay is most likely going to side with the buyer. They almost always do, it has nothing to do with who's right or who's wrong. They will also remove your negative feedback should he decide to leave you a bad mark.


I know that this has been covered many times on this forum but until something better than eBay comes along, most of us choose to deal with it. Amazon called me last week about setting up an online store for coins. It won't be rolled out for another couple of weeks. It's not cost effective for ions under $250. It's really worth it if ou have a lot of $1000+ coins in your inventory.

 

They will ALWAYS side with the buyer, as long as it can be proven the seller did NOT follow the seller rules to a 'T', and I mean a CAPITAL 'T', so it's best to just say 'Sure, send it back no problem, no questions asked'. Ebay is 99.9% pro-buyer (Heaven forbid a buyer has one bad experience....they'd HATE to lose business if that one buyer won't use ebay again, and they do think that way). This is why the buyer is just about ALWAYS right. I've heard of people getting items, and claiming 'never received', and the seller always eats the loss. A few years back, like 2 years, someone I know (have lost respect for him for this), got a $10 Indian, PCGS MS62, obviously over $250, making signature confirm necessary. It was sent DEL confirm, only, but insured, and tracking available, Priority mail. This person contacted to the seller, told them that even though it showed 'delivered', he never got the coin. Seller asked him to check with the P.O. and neighbors. A day later, not needing to check anywhere, just biding his time, this person (not on any coin forums, and now, not a very good friend, due to my disappointment he'd actually do this, but his reasoning was 'It'll teach them a lesson'...nice guy, huh?), well, he filed a claim, and the seller gave the option of refund or replacement. Naturally, he took the replacement (2 $10 Indians, PCGS graded MS62, for the price of one???...a 'no brainer' for him). So, the seller is out one coin at gratis, a 'black mark' against him, and this guy hammered him on the DSR's (again, 'to teach him a lesson'). Ebay was SO 'pro-buyer', the seller really didn't have a leg to stand on, due to not following the ebay/PP rule of sig confirm on $250 and over. When selling, you MUST follow the rules to a 'T', or you leave yourself open to taking a loss, and getting hammered in FB/DSR's. It's unfortunate there are people that do this, but 'smart' buyers WILL do this type of thing ANY chance they get...and they look for it on everything they order. Sad thing is, ebay WILL side with them ALL the time if you vary from their rules even the SLIGHTEST bit. If you sell, you had better know the exact procedures for each item. As an aside, I get items that SHOULD have sig confirms, or needing tracking, and they don't. As long as I get what I purchased, I would NEVER be as underhanded as this person I know, though I would leave pos FB, as I DID receive the coin, but I WILL ding the seller on DSR's....never will I leave a 1, but I will go to a 3 in extreme cases. "Ebay, where buyers are welcomed/treated like kings, and can't ever be wrong. Ebay, where sellers are welcomed, but you better follow our rules to a 'T', lest evil befall you."

 

Yeah, I had someone send me a $50 AGE with no signature confirmation. I didn't ding him on DSR or feedback -- heck, he saved me a trip to the PO -- but I did point out to him that an unethical buyer could've said "I didn't get the coin" and he would've been out ALL the money.

There's a nastier attack that works even if you DO require a signature. Buy the item, get it shipped to a confirmed address, but when it arrives there, tell the carrier that the person named no longer lives there and give a forwarding address. UPS, at least, will forward it on without requiring any confirmation from the sender. When it arrives at the new address, someone can sign for it -- but, since that new address is not PayPal/eBay verified, it doesn't count for Seller Protection.

I had someone try this when I was selling (for a friend) a $1600 camera. PayPal and eBay both confirmed that we would not be covered if we let the shipment go through. So, we recalled the shipment, and ate the (hefty) expense. That was also when I learned that sellers could no longer leave negative feedback for buyers, and so that was when I became an ex-seller.

 

I'd definitely get in touch with the seller , even though it's a poor fake IMHO . I just wish all fakes were this bad and easy to detect .

 

That is why I have not sold a single thing on the Feebay.

Edit: I had bought a Harpoon board game, when it came in it did not have the punch outs as the picture showed. I complained and was told tough.

Next week she puts the punch outs up for sale. I contacted here and said FOUL! She did not care. I left bad feedback and she did to me also.

So that is the bad side, yet I ordered another game from a gentlemen in Canada, it came in with no issues. Good Feedback given. 3 weeks later I get a package with an addition to the game. It was very rare (Harpoon Resolution 502) and he just said it should have went with the original. he paid the extra shipping and all. I would have loved to have given more feedback. He was a class act.