Would you pay a five-digit figure for a counterfeit Morgan?

Howdy peeps,

We've been talking about counterfeits quite a bit lately and I was wondering who all here would consider paying a five-digit figure for a counterfeit Morgan? I think it's safe to assume that 100% said NO, but currently there are 4 bidders on this one and it's currently at $26,550.00:

http://cgi.ebay.com/1889-CC-MORGAN-DOLLAR-BEAUTIFUL-COIN-FREE-SHIPPING_W0QQitemZ330356689971

But that seller loves to sell counterfeits as authentic, so why stop there, when there's so many bidiots willing to fork over their money:

1877 IHC:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260448969918

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260460317525

1909-S VDB Lincoln:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330349942947

1916-D Mercury:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260448729843

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330352032487

1893 Isabella Quarter:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330345657300

1900 Lafayette Comm:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260460328547

Then there all the fake Morgans he's sold, but you can look at his feedback to see those.

There are so many peeps out there buying up this numistrash and sometimes they happen to be members here and hopefully, with all the threads on counterfeits, ALL members here should learn to be cautious of a high dollar coin and to not only examine the coin carefully, but the seller as well and as is obvious, there are 4 peeps that must not have looked at the seller's feedback or they would have seen the 2 recent Neg's left for fake Morgans but even at that, many peeps will trust the PCGS slab and not even realize it's also a fake and knowing the crew here on CT, the first question out of most peeps mouth here is, "How do you know it's a fake?" :goof: The best rule of thumb is to not buy fuzzy pics and this seller has shown he's capable of taking clear pics, so why would anyone sell coins with fuzzy pics, when they know how to take clear pics? But that's not all. When buying a high-dollar coin from an "unknown source" you should also check the source and since this is a high grade Morgan, chances are it has sold at a major auction house at some point in its life, so check them to see if it sold thru them and for how much:

http://coins.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=1102&Lot_No=1045&src=pr

So it sold over a year ago for a little over 40 grand and now it's on Ebay for 25 grand. Sounds reasonable, doesn't it? :goof: Maybe, just maybe, by now the potential buyer is concerned enough to compare slab labels to verify they are the same and that's when the cookie crumbles. :hatch:

Please peeps, do not trust slabs! There are so many fake ones running around, the odds are you've seen several and don't know it. And I just got word last week that a seller of fake slabs, that CFE outed earlier this year, is now running the coin show circuits and is unloading them at coin shows, so be vigilant at ALL TIMES and do not let your guard down! :hammer:

Ribbit

Ps: You can thank Terry for this:

http://myworld.ebay.com/thlbj

He found it and did the research. :bow:

 

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Only if it was you selling it and I got to use federal buyout money.

 

Wow. Took me a minute in comparing the labels but one has 1889CC and the other has 1889-CC.

Makes me wish there was some way to warn the idiots who are bidding as to how stupid they are.

 

Yikes look at some of that guys completed auctions or his feedback... he's cleaning peoples clocks with those fake coins.... and only a few bad feedback's to show... I wonder how many of those folks have a new "pride and joy" in their collection that's a counterfeit and they dont know... looks like a few....

 

Definitely someone that needs to be booted not just from e-bay but public streets.

so the Morgan is an obvious fake, but other than the blurry photo's how can you say, other than making an assumptions which is probably accurate, say the others are fake? Just asking since I don't know those series very well.

 

Because I know this series very well and deal with them every day. All of the CC's he has listed and have sold in the past are counterfeits. I can even tell from those junky pictures.

He mixes a few fairly common date real coins with the obvious counterfeits. It looks like he has sold 10's of thousands of dollars in fake Chinese counterfeits as real coins. What a piece of garbage.

 

One would think that a seller could get a decent picture of a 20k coin.. but.. I am surprised PCGS hasnt jumped on this guy with both feet.

 

OK, but I was refering to the raw 1877 Indians and the mercs that Toad linked. The photos are so blury that we can only assume based on his history that he is a criminal and those must be fakes.

Don't get me wrong I would never suggest they are real, just wondering of there was a way to tell from the blury pics.

 

It has to be pointed out to them first. I'm sure they can't monitor every auction that comes around.

 

I love this guy's disclaimer. And I still can't even spot what's fake about it, but I'm taking your word for it since you obviously know what you're talking about. Lucky for me, there's no $26,000 coins in my future

Even so, even buying a $100 coin on ebay, I automatically shy away from anything that says its "from my dad's estate", or the English on the listing sounds like you would expect someone working in an Ebay sweatshop in Nigeria to sound like. After reading Toad's post, it makes this guy's disclaimer even funnier. In other words: "If you catch me, just send it back and I'll try to con someone else":

IF YOU ARE AN ANGRY PERSON OR A TROUBLE MAKER GO ON TO SOMEONE ELSES SITE AND BUY.WE ARE VERY RESPONSIVE TO OUR CUSTOMERS IF YOU DO NOT LIKE THE COIN WHEN RECEIVED SIMPLY EMAIL US AND RETURN IT TO US AND WE WILL PROMPTLY REFUND YOUR PAYPAL ACCOUNT.WE HAVE OVER 2500 POSITIVE FEEDBACKS,ANYONE WHO HAS EVER REQUESTED A REFUND HAS BEEN ISSUED A FULL REFUND. I DO NOT HAVE THE TIME TO ANSWER DISPUTES WHEN ALL THAT IS REQUIRED TO BE REFUNDED IS EMAIL US IF YOU DO NOT AGREE WITH THIS ,BUY FROM SOMEONE ELSE.​

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PCGS has been notified and so has Ebay. Let's see what, if anything happens.

 

Yes & No!

No, you can't tell they are fake by the pics alone.

Yes, you can tell they are fakes by deductive reasoning:

1. Look at all pics taken by the seller. Are any clear? Yes! Then why list a thousand dollar coin with crappy pics?

2. How many key date coins has he sold? Do any look good? No!

Even the seller of the 1921-D Mercury had many key date coins for sale, including many 1914-D Lincolns and on some of the coins she sold, they were all scratched up and looked terrible, but that was done intentionally to hide the fact they are fakes.

If you've ever thought about it, on Ebay, what would a severely damaged 1909-S VDB or 1914-D or 1931-S go for? Is it significantly higher than you can buy the fakes for? Yep! So she has figured out she can hide the authenticity problem by beating up the coin first, then selling it but she doesn't make as much but the profit is still high.

You have to look at the scammers and what they are doing, to figure out what they are doing and how they are doing it, in order to keep from falling for their trap. :headbang:

Ribbit

 

If it was made by one of the 'great' fakers, like the US numismatic equivilent of the forger of ancients, Karl Becker, I could see how they reached 4 figures, but we're talking about cheap chinese crap here right?

 

You as a dealer and an expert on this should be contacting ebay and reporting this seller, I know for a fact that when sellers are reported to ebay for selling fake anything they are investigated and delt with. The more complaints the better.

 

Well I now just refuse to buy anything from ebay when it comes to coins. This thread and some of the others have gotten my attention. I just don't have the knowledge yet to know if I'm being cheated or not. Ive been an ebay buyer of things in general a long time, and will still use them for some stuff. But for coins, forget it. I'm going to inform ebay of this as well, not that they will care much. I'm sure there are good deals on ebay from known people. but I don't know them yet. This is the kind of stuff that makes me worried about all slabs and especially raw coins. In medicine I protect myself from all patients like they have a serious infectious disease. We call it Universal Precautions.

Well I have decided that I must use Universal Precautions Numismatist style.

For me the Handsome Toad and others has has made some very important points about "Common Cents".

Thank you very much guys

 

You aren't kidding Doug.

I just today had to tell a gentleman that his $5 Liberty was a counterfiet. It's never a fun thing to do and I have been cussed up and down a few times because there is no way that dad's gold coin from the 60's can be a counterfeit and I'm a crook just trying to steal it. It's not a new thing. More then once I have paid for a customers coin to go to a grading company and be body bagged for being a counterfiet. I knew it would be bagged but it gave them a piece of mind. I am afraid that in 20 years I'm going to be doing the same thing with these coins.

I think the "Official Chinese Made US Counterfeit Coin Guide" would be a worthy endeavor for the right person. Getting these things cataloged is the only way to fight against this IMO. You want to co author a book Doug?? :goofer::goofer:

 

I once tried to get as many counterfeit Indian Half Eagles as I could for the sole purpose of photographing them and writing a paper. I found one dealer that had a whole tin of them in the back waiting to be sent for melting and he would not sell or loan any, I had another national dealer look for some at melt for me at shows and he came up short.

Basically it's not easy if the fake material is not readily available and don't know anyone willing to pay more than melt to get them from folks that won't beleive they have a counterfeit coin.

I'd love to re-start the project if I can get stuff to photograph.

I was thinking a downloadable .pdf work in progress or a constantly updated web page would be fun.

Maybe this could be a combined CT project.

 

The PCGS slab is a fake. PCGS puts a dash 'twixt the date and mintmark 1889-CC. The fake slab shown has no dash.

The certificate is a valid number. Always check that on PCGS' website :

http://www.pcgs.com/cert/

There's a bigger issue...

Even if the coin were genuine... what sort of person throws down $30,000 on a coin sight-unseen with crummy pictures ? on E-BAY, of all places ?

 

A shill with a fish on the line