I couldn't believe what I ran into today. About 2 years ago I bought the following Julia Domna denarius for something like 120 bucks. I had seen the Genetrix reverse, but this was Genetrici which went at least as far back as Sabina so it was a good addition. VENERI GENETRICI A few months later an antoninianus with this reverse type came along, and I foolishly supposed I could get it for about what the denarius had cost. That bid fell short, and I didn't see another one for about a year or so. Finally this one came along and i decided to jump on it. It cost about double what the denarius had cost, but I figured that the grade is higher and ants for Domna are less common than denarii, so okay, bite the bullet. With that I was set, but then this one came along from my friends at CNG and I thought I would upgrade: Since it was nicer (a lot nicer) I decided to go about $200 on it. Hah. Totally left in the dust. When it settled this coin had hammered at $320 with a final tab of just under $380. What surprised me so much is that it cost more than I had paid for the Ant, which shot my rationale for the price of that. I think my ant would grade on par with the CNG denarius, if they were side by side. And no, the CNG den is not described as being from Laodicea, despite the appearances of the ear and neck rings. I honestly can't tell how much these coins OUGHT to cost, and can't figure why these are so much pricier than much of her other silver. The only thing I can figure is that the market has risen with the higher rate of employment so that better grade stuff is coming out of the woodwork and driving competition in a stronger market. But maybe the coin types have something to do with it - and this I do not know. Some of you have quite a bit of experience with Severans and most likely know the market on this stuff. Your thoughts?
Don't stress yourself out overmuch. All it takes is a couple of determined people after the same thing to drive the price up to the sillysphere! Rasiel
I'm not sure but both denarii have a much higher level of craftsmanship, the last coin particularly. Not knowing much about Roman coins, that one would get the highest bid from me.
It really is not fair to compare a denarius issued under Septimius to a Caracalla period antoninianus. I don't follow prices on this late period but nothing is surprising at auction. People have money to burn and will pay what they must to win. The flat strike in the hair of the first coin would keep many people from bidding on it.
I'm just guessing here, but I wonder if ancient coin auctions at this level take on the characteristics of a fine art auction. An antoninianus of Julia Domna is indeed quite a bit scarcer than a denarius, from what little I've seen. So normally an antoninianus would cost more. But that third example in the OP is artistically spectacular - both obverse and reverse artistry are exceptional. This might be the point where fine art "masterpiece" considerations (and bidding) eclipse numismatics. Just guessing - I have neither the cash nor the nerve to purchase at this level. Nice to look at them though!
Marsyas Mike, You hit the nail on the head ! The 3rd denarius has phenomenal artistry aside from being struck from fresh dies & in choice extra fine condition. Connoisseurs will pay way over estimate for coins like that.
Here is my example of the OP denarius, purchased in 2008 at a local show for $55. It isn't as artistic in style or in as high a grade as the CNG example, to be sure. I would consider this coin merely scarce, as opposed to the no-crescent and with-crescent antoniniani issued under Caracalla with the IVLIA PIA FELIX AVG inscription, both of which are quite rare (R3 and R2, respectively, according to Temeryazev and Makarenko). My example is definitely in the Rome mint style, despite the "ring" at the empress's shoulder. In the case of this coin, I think this is meant not as a mint mark, but to represent the fibula of her palla, which Julia wears over her stola in a manner analogous to the palludamentum so frequently worn in portraits of male rulers. Julia Domna, AD 193-217. Roman AR denarius, 3.27 g, 18.10 mm, 6 h. Rome, AD 196-211. Obv: IVLIA AVGVSTA, bare-headed and draped bust, right. Rev: VENERI GENETRICI, Venus standing left, holding patera and vertical scepter. Refs: RIC 578; BMCRE 84, RSC/Cohen 185; RCV 6607; Hill 459; CRE 396; ERIC II 132.
Funny to see this coin here, I also put in a bid on this one yesterday which was not even close. And I got “Clio-ed” on another one I really liked at the last second. I think that @Marsyas Mike summed it up pretty well...the portrait on the CNG coin is exceptional, which is going to result in a much higher price. Also, a main reason why the final price was so high is simply because it was sold at CNG. They have gotten so popular, especially with folks with serious money to burn, that the prices can get up there very quickly. All it takes is two of those people, and you can end up with crazy hammer prices. I would guess that this may have sold for 20-25% less if it was listed elsewhere, but with the pool of people bidding at CNG auctions, you see final prices like this all the time.
I HATE auctions. Almost every time I bid on something, the price goes to the moon. I much prefer dealing one on one with a dealer. High buyers’ fees make it it worse. People can take all they want about how you cut back you bid and do “5th grade math with a calculator.” The trouble is there are many yahoos who bid as if the buyers’ fee isn’t there.
I'm afraid CNG will be losing a lot of business from New York State collectors ever since they started charging an 8% tax on top of the increase in buyers premium .
My problem is not having a good sense for how much to allow for a premium when the grade gets high. I knew that with its stellar portrait and detail in the reverse figure I would have to upgrade my value estimate on the CNG coin, but held back a bit because I don't like the lettering on part of the reverse. Clear lettering matters as much to me as a fine portrait or the presence of detail in reverse imaging. Obviously we do not all see the same things when we look at the same object. Nor do we put the same price tag on what we do see. Is that taste or market sense. (Ras: I do get it that auction realizations are merely the thought for the day, and a single event does not presage a trend - except when it does.) That is an interesting interpretation RC, but if you look at my first denarius example you will not find any kind of fibula, nor other neck decoration. Obviously since it is a PIA FELIX from the later period, minting from Laodicea/unknown Eastern is out of the question, but your spin on the function of those marks does call into question their use as mint marks earlier. But to the part not yet addressed, is there some reason the Genetrici reverse should fetch higher prices? So far it seems consistent that it does. Pricewise your example may have been held back by graininess, if the pic is accurate, but maybe not. You'd think that after 30+ years at this game I would have it down by now, but obviously I do not.
Once two folks (or more) are determined to get a coin then caution is thrown to the wind. There is a bit of an adrenaline rush in the closing minutes of an auction if you are participating and trying not to get sniped.
You can research a coin type you are interested in on CNG's archives to get a feel for what they might be worth. If it's a common issue, there will be lots of examples to review. https://www.cngcoins.com/Coins_sold.aspx
As @Shea19 mentioned, though, there is a CNG tax. I recommend paying the subscription for acsearch. Use the advanced search string capabilities (excluding terms with "-", quotes for exact phrases etc.) and order the results by increasing price. For example, here's what I found for GENETRICI denarii (plus a couple more expensive ones not included. Note that not all CNG results come up on acsearch for some reason, you have to search separately there if you really want to be thorough): The seated GENETRIX type is clearly much more common, so that would explain the price differential to some extent. (Along with condition, style, legends, CNG tax, and random noise I think the price variation gets fully explained.) There are far fewer results for the antoniniani, consistent with RC's thoughts: And then there's the no-crescent version, which might be thought of as a rather extreme illustration of the CNG tax. (@lrbguy, I don't really intend this as an answer to your questions, I'm sure you're well aware of the price searching options. This is more for others checking out the thread.)
But to the part not yet addressed, is there some reason the Genetrici reverse should fetch higher prices? So far it seems consistent that it does. Pricewise your example may have been held back by graininess, if the pic is accurate, but maybe not. You'd think that after 30+ years at this game I would have it down by now, but obviously I do not. The reverse is not that common and the one you posted appears to be the best of type so far. That easily explains why it went for so much. A crude search (just keyword GENETRICI) on Coryssa yields 44 sales out of over 17,000 and many of these appear to be reposted dupes. http://www.coryssa.org/index.php/su...arch2/yes/date_to/2019-07-06/use_checkboxes/0
"Easily explains?" Hmmm... I'm skeptical, @Suarez. Do you think it's clearly better than this one (117 USD)? Admittedly this has lost the top of an E and an N: I agree the style of the OP is nicer, but that's pretty subjective. I don't like the reverse fields and the legends are mushy in places. Here it is again for easy comparison: Event this is a challenger at 58 USD (admittedly slightly lower grade, though): Then we have this 2010 CNG sale for 135 USD, which is (to my eye) clearly better than the OP: Then back in 2009, also CNG, quite similar to the OP coin but better legends, also 135 USD:
I will probably pick the second one shown as a plate example in my next book. Which one is more desirable is subjective, yes, but what's a hundred bucks more for a coin that's likely to be featured in a book as the best extant representation? Rasiel
