Why pay so much for red copper? It will all be brown eventually.

I’ve noticed that older, high-grade copper coins often sell for a huge premium if the color has been graded red (RD) rather than red-brown (RB). These aren’t on my shopping list by a long stretch , but here are a couple of examples:

1. 1876 IHC in PCGS MS66 auctions for around $2,000 in RB but zooms to $9,000 in RD.

2. 1868 2-cent in PCGS MS66 auctions for around $4,000 in RB but zooms to $20,000 in RD.

Eventually both the RBs and RDs will be BN unless stored in a vacuum or inert atmosphere. Might take 2 years or 2+ centuries, but it will happen. Oh, and the grading services don’t guarantee color designations on copper. Reds get regraded at your own risk with regard to color.

There is a similar, but less pronounced, effect of the magic RD qualifier on prices of lower grade coins.

Seems foolish to me.

I’ve seen posts on forums alluding to techniques for upgrading color of copper so that the result is acceptable to grading services. I’d really like to learn one. Then I might buy a $4,000 coin and convert it into a $20,000 coin.

Cal

 

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Copper is unstable. Usually, the older the copper coin type the harder to find original red coins. Even many old copper cents graded "red" (while still original) are not as red as they once were.

 

For old coins, I usually prefer the look of the red-brown or brown pieces. They show their age, they have a patina, and I generally trust that they are more stable.

However, if we're talking 20th century copper.... I've seen enough red cents that were 50, 75, or older that had Red surfaces that seemed stable. I wouldn't pay an enormous premium for them, but if the coin is 75 years old and still has red surfaces.... you could feel okay that it will keep the red surfaces if stored properly.

 

As an addendum, I have seen a number of Indian Head cents and early Lincolns that are slabbed and in all likelihood RECOLORED - in other words treated to "restore" a red copper state that the TPG (major ones at that) will accept as Red but are obviously not possessed of original surface.

 

I won't go out of my way to hunt for red but if a red and a brown is the same price of course I'd do the red.

 

I mostly look for nice red-brown copper IHC and early Lincolns. Since a RB coin could be up to 95% red it isn't worth paying such a high premium for a red. Although if one is only interested in building registry sets, then red would probably give you the most points. As @Insider mentioned, many slabbed red coins aren't as red as they used to be when they were slabbed. So you may be paying a premium for a "red" coin that's really RB.

 

I like my copper coins green ...

 

It's a cat & mouse game. From what I observed, for a while in the eighties and nineties both major TPGS were slabbing recolored copper as original red. I named one of the deceptive treatments we saw "micro whizzing" as it was a "mechanical" rather than chemical alteration.
IMO, all the major TPGS do a much better job now and I rarely encounter any raw or slabbed micro whizzed coins anymore.

 

I generally agree with your statement and will not mention specific examples but will not name the dealer, but there is one that has come to the Baltimore shows for many years and they had quite a lineup. I pointed this out to my friend who specializes in such as well as Civil War storecards and he was in complete agreement. They were setting up at least through the pre-Covid period.
So not to say it represents a majority, but I still see these altered surfaces; I personally have not seen the "micro whizzing" but would not surprise me. It surprises me not that coins turn in the holder for this and a number of other reasons.
I would also like to note that even anointed experts miss these on occasion, and so caveat emptor rules....

 

I make mine red using finger nail polish. Okay, okay, no hate, just joking and couldn't restrain myself.

 

I just want to know why you even have finger nail polish!

 

Comes in handy if my granddaughter were to ever visit me. LOL

 

Granddaughter huh, okay. I have some nail polish remover if your granddaughter needs it MM. I'm surrounded by girls in our home, duh. OP, Red, RB or whatever, it's what catches my eye and my wallet. Good luck.

 

Oh yeah…. I have one early copper that was fairly pricey. The NGC authentication page tells me the grade is no longer applicable ten years after the certification date.

 

In my opinion, the grade should be the same. The designation of RD, RB, or brown shouldn't change the numeric grade.

 

Echoing @physics-fan3.14, here is a recent pickup, 1867 IHC in PCGS OGH MS-65BN. Just enough red to make it really attractive to my eye and slabbed long enough ago to pretty much guarantee (insofar as possible) that it will stay that way. As long as I do my part. Weakly struck obverse at date and reverse at shield and feathers.

This is an upgrade for the raw 1867 pictured third.

 

I love the color of this one. I've seen some RBs that no longer have any red left and the color is a dull brown. Your coin definitely has above average eye appeal.

 

markets will chase a diminishing resource

 

Bronze and brass coins too.

 

This piece is graded MS-65, R&B, CAC, and I believe that it is original. I have owned this piece for nine years, and it has not turned.



Despite the "R&B" label, I believe that this is a "red" as old copper can be. The color, if it is real, is subdued. It does not "flash" like a 2021 cent fresh out of the mint.

Here is another one, also graded "R&B" that I have owned for six years.



More than two decades ago, I got stuck with a "red" 1854 Large Cent that changed color, despite proper storage, within six months. I have learned what appears to be original and what isn't. Despite that, I usually my my old copper coins with "Brown" surfaces. They cost less, and have less downside risk from "turning." I know that this one is stable.