Why I Quit Collecting

1. This is an ad hoc, off-the-cuff post. I am not dressing this up, or revising it. If this were paper, it would a "hot pen" journal entry.

2. This is going to be understood by some readers and misunderstood by others.

3. I am happy to discuss anything here.

4. You cannot hear my voice, or see my face, all you have is the expressionless words.

5. I am doing this to prepare an ANA "Numismatic Theater" presentation for a couple of shows later on, Milwaukee, maybe. I want to organize my thoughts and get some feedback, if possible, before I go live.

I quit collecting in 2000. There were several reasons. There had to be, because it is my nature that I seldom do anything for just one reason. I believe that good ideas (and bad) have links to other ideas and facts, so that if there is one reason to do something, there should be others, if the reason is to be considered valid. So, there were several reasons, and they all came together at once.

A. I got tired of the multiple layers of reinforcing frauds.

A.1. Collectors are lying, scheming, scamming con artists.
A.2. Collectors delude themselves.
A.3. Dealers count on those two facts to earn a hard living.
A.4. The numismatic press institutionalizes the fraud and delusion to perpetuate the hobby and thereby ensure its own survival.

A.5. The percentage of fake material, counterfeits, and doctored material is astounding.

B. I broke my own habituation (or addiction) to collecting.

B.1. I found other uses for my money.

B.2. I found other avenues for my interests.

C. As you know, I still participate in numismatics. However, I have not collected in over five years. I still buy numismatic material, but only in support of actual research for specific projects.

(more later)

 

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Purely technical comment: I'm not sure "B." can be argued as simultaneous to "A.," as it likely wouldn't have happened had the dissatisfaction you express not happened in the first place. So they can't be said to have come together all at once. I only mention this by way of suggesting that you might describe your exit from collecting as a process rather than an event.

I hope cooler heads prevail when evaluating your essay. I can already tell that some important points will be made.

 

Like most things, collecting coins is what you make of it. It really isn't any more complicated than that.

 

Actually, I've never heard of you and have been a semi-avid collector for over 35 years, course I'd only bought one price guide since 1995. Many, Many (Pure Collector's) don't follow the editorials in the myriad of numismatic magazines which have sprung up over the past decade or so. Many, Many collector's only buy a new RedBook every few years and then only pull out their collections for the grandkids.

Only in the past year have I even started becoming involved in the subtle nuances of the hobby and the complex personalities driving it in the direction it appears to be going. BTW, I'm not always in agreement with that direction.

Please don't take this as a critical view of your articles, I'm sure they're great. Never-the-less the number of collectors still in the "dark ages" of the hobby is indeed significant. In many case's an individual with a "wheel-horse" collection who hasn't dusted it off in a while is put off by the modern cyber-collector who attempts to dazzle the living daylights out of them with useless knowledge and jargon.

You won't get too far telling an old time collector all his silver or gold coinage is counterfeit because it hasn't been certified by a Third party Grading company when he's the fellow who put it up in 1956 or so.

This site is a pleasant break from the 90mph acronym laced posts one will find on other boards. Occasionally someone will try to intimidate another with how much they know, but by and large an individual with a question can get the time without hearing how to build the clock

I'm done, my two-bits is over
Bone

 

I appreciate posts like this coming from collectors, or former collectors, with a great deal more knowledge than I have. If an expert can feel this way, what chance does a casual collector like me have? I concluded quite some time ago that the answer is - virtually none. I love coins but can't devote the time to rise to the level of expertise needed to combat those in the hobby who make a living preying on people like me.

My personal solution is to limit my participation to buying bargain priced gold and silver coins when I can find them [to satisfy the investor and bargain hunter in me], picking interesting pieces or building partial sets out of pocket change and some rolls [to relax and unwind], and buying a few old US and Canadian tokens [because they are interesting, historical, and relatively cheap since few people collect exonumia].

Most coins seem overpriced when I want to buy them, and worthless when I want to sell them. Buying a coins is sometimes like buying a car -- it loses 20% of it's value when you walk out the door with it. It seems sometimes that actually putting together a set of just about anything requires the mindset that you are going to have to cheerfully submit to getting ripped off and convince yourself that creating something of lasting value isn't important to the "enjoyment" of the hobby.

Anyway, my opinions don't carry the weight that Mike's do, but that's the way things look from down here at the bottom.

Thanks Mike for stirring the pot.

 

I'm not sure I would want to live in a world that matched your perceptions Michael, but I'll bet you and Sidney Lumet, the movie director, would be great buddies. You certainly have the same world view.

 

I see parallels all over the place.

mmarotta is not unlike millions of others who have invested a great deal of time into a hobby, education, business, or a marriage only to find that it was not what he had anticipated. I would guess that his problem comes from near-total emersion in coin collecting. Those that are never really caught-up in something would not understand where he is coming from. I know precisely how he feels, and have a solution of sorts. Like a typical "man", I am into solutions, not idle talk.

There have been hundreds of good and great novels written about this same psychological dynamic. I have a number of parallel scenarios in my own life, but I think my experience with music is the best example.

My experience with music is common with a lot of other former wanna be musicians. A person that becomes interested in music practices endlessly and learns how to do it, some faster than others. Moat get better and better. Many musicians succeed, often in obvious skills and public acceptance rather than dollars. The earn "psychic dollars" if you like.

Typically, musicians obtain the desired skills, then non-related issues muck it up. Bands break up, the musicians starve to death, or personal relationships preclude dedication to the music. There are a lot of egotistical jerks and human lizards in music circles. Ego is huge with most musicians. For whatever reason, thousands of really good musicians totally give up music. They walk away, cold turkey. Many feel that if they can not dediciate the time and effort to play at a high level, then they would rather not play at all.

The solution to this common problem is to step back and find a way to have fun with the hobby. I played mandolin in a bluegrass band for ten years. The band broke up, and I basically didn't play again for ten years.

I gave up playing structured mandolin music because it requires a whole band, a pretty good band, to do so. So, I now I play some guitar and sing cowboy and folk songs. I don't need a band, I have few audiences, and I can enjoy playing when I feel like it. No pressure. No expectations.

In my opinion. the same thing is true with coin collecting or any other hobby which may demand a lot of time and money. A person needs to step back and enjoy some part of the scene. A person does not need to have the best collection in the world, or know everything about coins. Often times, the journey is more important that the destination. Collect coins or not. Just don't let coins or buttheads dominate your thoughts. Forget about the liars and thieves. Just enjoy what you can.

There are some very nice people on this board. I enjoy it. I learn stuff. However, I don't intend to be a hardcore coin collector. I need to make wine and play my guitar. I also make bread, pet the dog, cut wood, and shoot stuff. I still like coins and nobody can make me mad or stop doing it.

He climbs off his soapbox and shuffles back into the crowd...........

 

Not all collectors are frauds and cheats. In fact the vast (uneducated) majority like myself are collectors.

The issue of counterfeiting is a valid concern. As prices creep ever higher, there are those who will 'wizz' coins to get higher pricing. This was so rampant, it was why third party graders came into being.
I have collected Morgan dollars since the late sixties. I purchased these until about 1985 and started back up aound 1995.
I have been sending in my coins for grading to NGC. Boy was I surprised when one of my coins was returned in a 'body bag' having been wizzed. It was a 1934 P Peace dollar that was MS 64-MS 65. I bought this raw coin in 1983 from a respected dealer.
There will always be people out to cheat other people. It is the ugly reality of this hobby. Having said that, that has not deterred me from collecting. I simply buy only graded coins from PCGS or NGC. I do this because I trust there grading.
I recently purchased a 1886 P Morgan graded MS 66 in a Numistrust holder # 219125. I bought it because I thought it was a Vam 1C '3+2' die clash reverse. I sent it this week to NGC for attribution. I seriously doubt this coin will grade better than MS64. I will let everyone know how it turns out. I point this out merely to illustrate that grading is 'very subjective' and therefore conducive for people to take advantage of the situation.
I agree with your assumption that scamming is rampant, but that will not stop me from collecting.
I do not agree with your assumption that 'all' collectors are crooks, cheats and scammers. I am of the opinion that the good folks out number the bad folks by a wide margin.
Like any endeavor that cost money, there will always be folks out to cheat the system. Who ever said this hobby was easy? Like many here, I love the beauty, the artistry, the majestic history of a time long since past and what those coins represented. Coin collecting is sorta like treasure hunting. It has its hits and misses. The bottom line is I enjoy it and I simply have to purchase smarter and attempt to not letscammers and cheats destroy a hobby I enjoy.
My guess, if it gets bad enough, more stringent standards will be imposed on the industry to attempt to stem the scamming and cheating. Sadly, there will always be an element that will try to get around that. The good always suffer for the bad.
This was the reason that I stopped collecting in 1985. I was not sure the coins I were buying were being represented fairly.
I felt comfortable in 1995 to resume my quest for more Morgan dollars. If it gets too bad ( the scamming), I will slow down or stop all together untill such time as I can begin again. I am glad that PCGS, and NGC are trusted for their accuratcy in grading.
What else can a person do?

 

I must say there are scams out there and one must be careful. I have been burned but I also have gotten screamin deals.

 

For me, the only reason I will quit... I hear there is a 12 step program

oh one to add:

B.3. The wife gets better aim with the fry-pan.

 

Please explain how you come to these conclusion

A.1. Collectors are lying, scheming, scamming con artists.
A.2. Collectors delude themselves.


We have never met so I do not see how you can say this about me or any other member of this forum, if in A.2. you are refering to the possible worth of our collections then please believe me when I say I am under no delusions there nor am I under any concerning my knowlage of the hobby but I enjoy it all the same.

De Orc

 

Hello mmarotta
Collecting (any hobby actually) MUST be a pleasure and source of gratification. When it becomes painful somewhere at your bottom, you are right to stop it. If one day I feel I'm getting bored, for any reason, with coin collecting, I hope I will be wise enough to do something else.
And you don't have to justify yourself. Any reason is respectable as long as it is yours and not someone's else.
Hope we can still read posts from you
Cucumbor

 

Actually - it sounds like your still collecting to me.

 

I do understand your feelings, BUT!!!!! I dont care what you collect,Arrowheads,old bottles,civilwar stuff, WW2 german stuff,antiques of all kinds, your going to meet and deal with the SAME kind of differant folks!!bottom line.Some good-some bad!Even buying a car or house!! Education & knowledge is your own defence, as the old saying goes."Get the book BEFORE the artifact!", no matter what intersest you have.DONT QUIT!!Its evident you do have a love for coins, so start-over with a NEW attitude.. Regards, Mike G. :thumb: :thumb:

 

I have had many many hobbies, ie a long time ago, when I was a kid I also delved into postage stamps. I built model aircrafts and still collect the kits unbuilt. I also study avidly Russian/Soviet aviation.

I have never lost interest in my coin collecting, but I realise my interests within the confines of the hobby evolve into new areas of collecting. Things I collected avidly several years ago have no penchant interests to me anymore than as something of past interests. At times when my interests changed or evolved I would divest my self of some or all of the past interests holdings, only to have a feeling of regret later on.

One thing, I believe my current interests have evolved to a higher plane of collecting than I had previously thought possible. I had never considered seriously going into ancients, but then like an affliction for which there is no cure, I find myself in the throws of a serious disease of finding every lovely ancient and possessing it.

 

Don't get in over your head. Dabble but don't get consumed by the more technical areas of collecting. Never let your hobby control you and never call yourself a dealer. In other words, the more simple you keep your collecting habits, the more enjoyable the hobby. Be happy with what you get and don't worry about what you can't get. Keep it a hobby and not an obsession.

 

All of the views expressed in this thread regarding the integrity and commitment of the members here are most likely true. One point to be made, though, is that the type of person with the drive to become an active member at a forum of this type represents a specific subset of the collecting community. A very small subset.

There are over 28,000 US, 14,000 world, and 1800 ancient coin auctions on Ebay ending today. A quick perusal of completed auctions indicates that at least half of those coins will sell. What does that say about the size of the market? Are we all doing that buying?

I don't think so.

The overwhelming majority of people buying these coins are, I believe, unaware of the existance of forums like this and equally unaware of the points Mike is making. They are the sheep which are feeding the wolves he's talking about. The market exists, and unscrupulous dealers are springing up to take advantage of it.

Peruse the Ebay Morgan auctions section some time and see what you can come up with as a percentage of sellers you'd consider questionable - people misrepresenting coins who should know better, evidenced by their sales volume or statements about their experience/business status. If you don't question a third of the sellers, you're not looking hard enough.

And some of these sellers are doing huge volume. Abon Enterprises has over 50,000 feedbacks, and almost all of them are coins. Another seller I shall not name, an NNC specialist, has over 22,000. It isn't you and I buying this crap.

If you do not believe that our hobby is in the midst of a major moral crisis, you aren't seeing the reality. I haven't even addressed gradeflation, another unscrupulous practice in which even the major TPG's are participating.

And, on a personal note, although I wouldn't consider myself dishonest, I would certainly assign myself the "scheming" adjective Mike mentions in A.1. I most assuredly snipe Ebay auctions I perceive to be held by someone who doesn't know the value of their coin. I most assuredly work very hard not to pay the true market value of what I buy.

Any among you who ever engage in paying less than market value for your coins, to the deliberate detriment of the seller, are acting in a less than completely honest fashion. It's just been an engrained aspect of business for so long that we've lost sight of the fact that it's a practice which will likely have us squirming when we meet our Maker.

Mike's words rankle, and disturb, and probably truly don't apply to those who are reading my post. However, you, reading them in your small rooms, seem unaware that your rooms are in a very big house indeed.

 

Dave I can agree with you on most of what you say but I dont see sniping as it is called as been wrong if you are taking part on a auction you bid up to what you want to pay and it matters not if your bid goes on a day or a second before the auction closes, thats the name of the game mate, also if a person does not have a reserve and I win under market value where is the dishonisty or scheming in that??
I know what you mean by a big house as I was very active at one time in the memrobilia world and that was fun :headbang: LOL

De Orc :kewl:

 

Yeah, though, honestly, you'd have to send in a Search & Rescue team to find 'em!