Whizzing vs Cleaning vs Dipping vs Acetone

This thread I am hoping will try to help some identify the difference if any between the 4 processes, and what they do to original condition coins and their values--

I will specifically start off with the $20 Saint Gaudens since that is how I was burnt 3 times. This started my personnal research & education on how to detect this when I buy RAW coins. Which still to this day I am still learning--Then perhaps we can discuss silver coins like Morgans, Peace & SAE and how to detect these flaws--And even some coppers if anybody has any experience--

First to my "whizzed" Saint--What I noticed was this pattern of what I would call "dots" all over the coin--When you compared it to a perfect saint, the background was nice and smooth--looked natural if you will, whereas a whizzed coin looked "pocket" marked, little periods all over the coin, I have also noticed "unnatural lines" or scratches usually going in one direction and accumulates on raised surfaces, on some coins all going in one direction, on one coin going in all directions (musta been a newbie whizzer)--Also the "luster" of the coin is gone, not sharp is what I tell myself, altho you might still get a "cartwheel" effect, it really isn't if you compare it to say a perfect ms65 Saint--

A cleaned Saint is more subtle to detect vs a not cleaned coin--But never the less "cleaned"
What you notice on these puppies is a "faded" look, you won't see the "dots" or "lines" you would see on a whizzed coin. When looking at it with naked eye, you just see it does not look right--There is no "cartwheel", it is not as sharp and looks "dull" if you will--Usually more shiny than it should be, "cleaned"--Won't show it's age, has a "mistreated" look--

There are also other cleaning methods done that I have yet been able to detect that is even more subtle, but yet when you send it to NGC or PCGS they could see it--I say that because I sent 2 Saints in that with my equipment & eye I could not detect cleaning-- They were returned in a body bag That is why I am still very much an amature at detecting "cleaned" but much better at detecting "whizzed" gold Saints coins--
That is why I experiment and have a few "test coins" to test these forms of cleaning on silver to try and educate myself--I have not whizzed a silver coin yet, donno how, all I know is it usually done with a "mechanical" device, I assumed since it is so brutal, I would say a drill or a dremel type tool with a wire brush--Need I say more? I am hoping this procees has stopped. But buyer beware they are out there.

I have more to say, but for now I'll post and hope to read interesting stuff on this topic--By the way, I went by Coin Worlds webpage today their first article is exactly on this subject. Since I was burnt by this "whizzing & cleaning" stuff, I figured I need more education. I'm looking forward to info from you all on this subject--
THANKS
Cisco

 

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Great thread! Thanks! I have some cleaned stuff myself that I have to ask the experts on how and why I went wrong. Luckily, for the most part I'm learning a bit inexpensively compared to buying gold wrong.

 

Thanks,That post i'm sure will help alot of folks. Norm

 

Thanks Cisco,
This is a great topic. I've heard the term "whizzed" before & assumed it was done with a soft wire wheel. I will be interested to discover the differences between "cleaned & dipped." I believe dipping is a liquid chemical like Tarn-X. But the question is, Other than buying only slabed coins ( from the top few Co. ) how does a novice like me tell? Dave

 

Dave
It is done with a wire wheel or brush....
The coin that has been cleaned will appear to be very shiny...it doesn't have the cartwheel look....look at a BU coin under a light and turn the coin and look for a "cartwheel" look as the light goes around the coin...that is a BU coin--a cleaned coin will not have that--
Speedy

 

That is exactly what i did Knowtracks-
I bought a slabbed example coin to compare with.
Then i purchased a 14x maginfier. You need at least a 10x. (this is what i've learned right here on this forum)
Also just learned a coin can only be so perfect, but the texture difference is what to look for. If a coin has been wiped with anything (enough to matter) it can be seen, but you have to find the angle at which the light returns to your eye to reveale the scratches.
I think pro grader give more attention to the edge than the average person. What is trapped in those chasums around the edges can give you a hint about where the coin has been. Everything from human DNA to Brasso.

 

thanks for the thread...good information

 

If you just slightly and slowly rock a coin under light, hairlines will often times flash at you like someone in the subway wearing a trench coat. Watch dealers at shows checking someone's coin that they are thinking about buying. Rocking is the first thing they do.

A BU coin that formly had some dark toning but is not hairlined will sometimes show edvidence of that toning in the protected areas and in the reeding, and especially between denticles.

You could also become a "cynic" when you see a 100 year old blast white coin. You may not win any popularity contests on the Internet being a cynic or skeptic but your wallet might appreciate it. So just ask yourself what could have occured that kept this 100 year coin from toning in the first place. I rather doubt that Capital Holders were around in 1895.

*QUESTION EVERYTHING!*

 

Very good points, longnine. However, I've had some raw coins which, to me, just showed no signs of cleaning or dipping at all (I'm usually OK detecting whizzed or polished surfaces), but when they've come back from PCGS, they've been bodybagged. I think one problem is that I just do not have enough slabbed coins with which to compare since the degree of luster for MS coins may vary from year to year within a series (Morgans in my instance) and I can't match them year-for-year. Whereas, at PCGS, they have thousands with which to compare, not to mention the years of experience. I swear sometimes, they can pick out a coin and label it cleaned if it got within ten feet of distilled water.

Like you, with raw coins, I QUESTION EVERYTHING. Unless there is some compelling reason for me to do otherwise, I presume all raw Morgans on eBay have been cleaned at some point and I now won't buy unless the seller will accept a return if it comes back bodybagged by PCGS.

 

Ok, looks like the thread is getting some legs--Attached is your first test future numismatists of America--Tell me, what’s wrong with what coin if anything? Do you see a problem? If so with which one and what do you think was done?? After this one I'll show another one--or maybe 2 if yawl want--

 

Yea I know, I shoulda said GD is exempt--unless they donno, then your opinion is most welcomed buddy--

 

Well, I'm not very good at making judgements from photos, but if someone held a gun to my head and told me to do so, I'd say the 1923 looks dipped in some sort of acid bath: loss of luster and uniform discoloration. The 1922 is weird - I can't decide what its problem might be, but it seems to have a rash. Looks like mildew, but silver doesn't mildew very easily.

Why do I have the feeling that this is a trick question?

What say others? C'mon, I can take it. I've been wrong before...

 

Maybe someone dropped both of them in the garbage disposal?

 

I'm gonna guess that the '22 was dipped to remove PVC contamination but the damage was already done. Just a WAG, hard to tell by pictures.

 

Ok GD whats your opinion, after that I'll post what I did to the 1922--the 1923 is what it is, nothing was done to it, at least I did not do anything to it, do you see a problem??--to me, natural golden tone hitting it--even in a dark dry safe--interesting eh? BTW, both were received at same time from same seller--Also bought a 1884 Morgan with these 2--All were suppose to be BU for 15 bucks each--a year or so back--from californy

 

Well Ima sorta disappointed so many were afraid to respond to whats been done to the 1922, how yawl gonna learn without speaking out!!. Gd I had no doubt you would respond. BUT, I did 2 things to this coin-When I received this guy, somehow during shipping the seller from Californy used "scotch tape" to secure the coins--Well in the HOT & HUMID Florida sun in the August summer in a mail truck it is not wise to use scotch tape or any tape down here to ship anything-- The 1922 had this stuff "glued" to it, so I tried koinsolve (see pic)--well that stuff didn't touch it, the only other stuff I had was coin cleaner, (see pic)--as you can see the coin is shiny and brite, nicely cleaned, all pvc has been removed, BUT the melted tape is still on the coin (along left bottom quarter/left half along the edge)--Now I did receive advice from another admin (satootoko ) I think it was bout using acetone--On my next visit to home depot I will buy a small can of this stuff and will try it on the 1922, if that works I'll post a new pic of the 1922 with the tape/glue removed so yawl can see it's effects--This 1922 was a coin I used to learn processes of coin cleaning or trying to clean--I'm thinking of 'whizzing' it next to see how it looks on a silver coin-- Anyways attached is the 2 chemicals I used on the 1922 (so far)--