When crossovering...do you break out or send as it is?

I have some proof coins I acculmulated from a number of "lower-tiered grading services" that I felt would cross-over nicely with guys like PCGS, NGC, ICG, etc. All things said, a PCGS PR69DCAM is worth more than ___ grading company in the lower tier range. The dollars I saved were substantial and if I crossed them over, I would still be ahead. Shoot, I could list a few on ebay and apply the dollars elsewhere! Anyways...

Question...do you think guys like PCGS would be more "prejudicial" when crossing slabs or less inclined if they were submitted raw?

I don't want to believe that a grader would say, "What the...these coins were graded ____ by those guys?...I'll show them how to grade."

Since they are proof coins, I really don't like breaking out slabs. There I am holding my breath, touching the coin (on the edge) with all inert materials, and hoping that I don't sneeze during the process.

What would you do...let them cross completely? ...or at a minimum grade (not likely to achieve due to grading profiling...if there is such a thing)? ...or break them out and hope I don't breathe on the coin and submit them raw?

Your thoughts please. Thanks!

 

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Ed

Im working from memory here, but I asked this question I believe it was to NGC ,,I went back through the emails but could not find the response, But I think they told me to leave them slabbed.

If your afraid that the coins will come back lower , then by all means break them out and send them.

Clean the area real good wear a dust mask,gloves ,take all the right precautions everything will be alright!!

 

Ed, I don't do many crossovers, but I had the same quandary as you regarding potential damage while breaking out a slabbed coin. BTW, I send all my crossovers to PCGS. I've gravitated to the point that if the coin is graded by one of the six grading companies listed in the three tiers as defined by the PNG/ICTA survey: http://www.pngdealers.com/public/surveyresults.html , then I leave it in the slab. If it's graded by anybody else (e.g. fly-by-night or MS-70 Inc), I break it out and send it in as a raw coin. While the slabbed grades of the third tier companies tend to be over-graded, they are still recognized companies, albeit with less reputation whereas the assigned grades by lesser companies are meaningless and rather than have PCGS' graders be negatively influenced by a worthless slab, I'd rather crack it out to give the coin a fair chance at a realistic grade.

 

Ditto. The bird in the hand...

Nick

 

Now I know I'm right: crack it out if it's a low-tier coin (in MS). I sent out an 1890-CC Morgan graded MS-64 by PCI to PCGS for crossover.I had compared it with several other PCGS MS-64s (and -65s and 63s) I have and determined that it would keep its grade or, at worst, be downgraded to MS-63, so I left it in the slab and specified in the submission form that I would accept MS-63. PCGS sent it back "DNC" (I think this means "did not crossover").

I really think that if I had cracked it out of the PCI slab and sent it in as a raw coin, PCGS would have been more inclined to give it a fair grade. I sense a certain arrogance among PCGS graders with a possible sentiment that "If someone had the termerity to submit this coin to PCI, then they deserve to be cut down a little."

However, PCGS's guidelines for crossover submission is a little confusing. They state, in part "We will grade... only if the PCGS grade meets or exceeds the other grading company's grade (unless specifically instructed differently by you)." (my italics). Then continues, "If the PCGS grade is lower than the other grading company's grade, we will return the coin to you in the original holder." I specifically instructed differently, but the last sentence of the guidelines may negate the earlier sentence. I'll have to contact PCGS for clarification. Nevertheless, I cannot believe PCGS's intent of this guideline is to issue a crossover ONLY if the coin is equal to or greater than the original slab.

 

That's what I am talking about!

I have bought some slabs at shows that were overgraded in my opinion, but I figured, "What the heck?...I'll just send them in to somebody like PCGS and if they grade them down to MS65 (which is what I thought the coin should be) instead of MS67 from the lower-tier service, based on what I paid for it, I will still be ahead (alot) and will have a coin that is more marketable than the other slab company.

I always felt that there was an arrogance factor as you suggested that the top grading companies would look down upon other services and don't crossover to even minimum grades 2 to 4 points lower, because they are crossing from the "junk" companies.

I'll guess I will have to hold my breath and carefully break out some of my proofs that I believe will grade better RAW versus if they were in their current low-tiered holder.

Some I will keep and the others I plan to sell so I can apply the dollars to other coins I want.

 

Maybe it was my conspiracy theory...

[Please insert Homer Simpson "Doh!" here]

Thanks GD, I was all bent over on the negative and forgot that it could be positive!!

 

GD, I would think that these are the exception rather than the rule. I HAVE seen PCI-graded coins on eBay which could hold their grades at PCGS, but most wouldn't IMHO. To me, NTC is a joke. I've purchased NTC slabs KNOWING before I had them in hand that their PCGS grades would be two or three points lower; once in hand, I could see for myself that PCGS would lower the grade although by exactly how much more, I couldn't be certain. To give them their best chance, I crack out all NTCs before submitting to PCGS.

Certainly, most PCI and NTC slabs I've seen on eBay sell for much less than their equivalent PCGS grade since most purchasers seem to know that PCI and NTC generally overgrade. Similarly, most sellers of PCI and NTC also know that such coins will go for much less, so accept lower final sales prices, set their reserves or Buy It Now prices lower, or if they have listed near or at PCGS-grade prices, don't sell at all.

I have an NTC "MS-67" coming back from PCGS in a couple weeks or so. I estimated MS-64 at most and cracked it out of the case before submitting. In the same submission was a CRC "MS-67" that I also cracked out and for which I will be happy if it makes MS-62. I fear that if I submitted them in the slabs they would come back even lower.

To answer a question before it's asked, I have all my Morgans graded by PCGS (if they didn't already come PCGS graded) so that if I have to sell any on short notice (new car, new wife, the usual reasons), I'll have a reasonable probability of selling them and maximizing my sales price.

In fairness to PCI, I should state that I have seen listed coins with reasonably accurate grades."Buy the coin, not the slab.". However, after this last experience, any PCI coins I submit to PCGS will be cracked out.

 

Crossovering?

Sounds too kinky for me.

 

Thatsa fact! You might enjoy one of my online groups in which a couple guys swear that not only did Franklin Roosevelt know about Pearl Harbor in advance, he engineered it! They live in their own belief world written by H.G. Welles and Beatrix Potter. To misquote Rumsfeld, "They live in a world as they would wish it to be, not as it is.". Such belief worlds defy fact and reality.

On my belief that submission of a low-tiered/untiered TPG's slab to PCGS might be contaminated by the TPG's slab and should be cracked out of said slab, it's certainly nothing I can prove conclusively. I have only my own experiences with which to judge. Statistically, my N sample is far too low to be significant, so I have to go with the anecdotal and crack out the low-tiered/untiered TPG-graded coins. I could be wrong; it's been known to happen before (there was this incident in 1968...).

That'd do it. I also buy them already slabbed by PCGS or NGC if I'm after a particular coin for my collection (and by inference, for long-term value appreciation) and don't want to take a chance or can't find any suitable alternative. While the top four TPGs might have their shortcomings and they are not necessarily consistent nor accurate even among and between themselves, they're way ahead of the low-tiered and untiered companies.

There's also a little bit of the gambler in me. I'll buy raw and low-tiered/untiered TPG slabbed coins based on my queries to the sellers, on careful analysis of a particular coin, and on my instincts. I'm not wrong often, but I certainly do get it wrong from time to time. For me, it's part of the game which is an awful lot of fun. When it stops being fun, I'll get out.

(Is there such a word as "untiered"?)

 

Possibly in one of my previous incarnations, maybe when I was Ben Franklin. Were you my apprentice? If so, you picked a fine mentor!<g>

 

That's it! I am an avid fly-tyer and fly fisherman. We must have met at some time along a cool bubbling trout-filled stream in Scotland.

 

Grading companies

This is my first post here and I am hoping to get some honest information. I started collecting coins back in the 1970's and was active for about 5 years. I have done literally nothing since then but I am once again interested in growing my collection. Since the grading systems have changed dramatically since the 70's, I am determined to send them to get them professionally graded because I really want to know what I have. I have read about the "Bif Four" grading companies and have visited their web sites. I have also purchased some slab coins recently on e-bay and I have noticed that, by far, the vast majority of coins are graded by PCGS. ANACS is significantly less expensive in grading coins, not to mention I do not have to subscribe as with PCGS. There may be a point where I do want to sell some coins and I am wondering if ANACS is as accepted as PCGS and will I realize the same return from a slab from ANACS as from PCGS. Any thoughts or info from past experience will be most appreciated. Thak you!