What variety is this 16Z1 Thaler from Austria?

Discussion in 'World Coins' started by bernard55, Mar 3, 2024.

  1. bernard55

    bernard55 Active Member

    I recently purchased this 16Z1 Austria Thaler. I thought this was the KM 264.5 but now that I look at the reverse and the lettering I am unsure. This coin I acquired has reverse lettering containing "TIROLIS" or "TIROLFS" (unsure) rather than "TIROLI:" as in 264.5 (MANTIS) or 264.1 . Numista says there are many varieties, but I can't pinpoint where they are all listed to narrow this one down. If anyone knows, where a catalog of all of the varieties of this specific Thaler, please respond.

    The obverse lettering also threw me off but I did find 3 with the same obverse on acsearch, but the county is wrong on the reverse.
    Screenshot 2024-03-03 225942.png
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  3. robinjojo

    robinjojo Well-Known Member

    That's a very nice coin with an interesting error in the reverse legend. It seems that instead of an "I" punched into the legend of the die, a "P" or "F" was used.

    In my limited search on CoinArchives I found both TRIOL and TRIOLIS used by the Hall mint for 1621, and I found another coin with the same error/correction. The auction house gave this example Dav.3328 for reference. There's also Dav.3330 for 1621. Perhaps the TRIOL ending legends applies to this catalog number.

    Archduke Leoplod thaler 1621 1 3-3-24.jpg

    Here's a link to that page. The coin above was sold by Numismatik Zöttl - Auction 22, Lot 95.


    As for a reference listing varieties, I'm sure one exists, but my only reference is Davenport, a more general reference that does not include very many varieties. He does mention rarity, though that information is pretty dated now.

    I scanned over the CoinArchives page a little further and found another abbreviation: "TIRO".

    Archduke Leoplod thaler 1621 2 3-3-24.jpg

    I noticed one listing including a reference to Voglh. I am not familiar with this author, but his (or her) reference might include a discussion on the varieties for this coinage.
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2024
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  4. bernard55

    bernard55 Active Member

    @robinjojo thank you so much for the information! I just read about Davenport here - interesting story. I suspect this would be in his book German Secular Talers, 1600-1700 from 1976 given it's minted by a secular authority within the Holy Roman Empire during the 1600s. I'll see if I can find the reference to 3328. This is a fun coin to research given the varieties and the timeframe.
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  5. bernard55

    bernard55 Active Member

    It looks like that book is $140 used at Abe's and $150 on Amazon. That's a lot to pay to be unsure if it's in that book. If anyone out there has the Davenport books, it would be great if you could do a quick search.
  6. bernard55

    bernard55 Active Member

    I did find one similar on the PCSG Catalog similar.jpg From here labeled 1621 Thaler D-3330 Hall (Regular Strike)
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  7. bernard55

    bernard55 Active Member

    This coin is leading me on a journey. I'm wondering why more isn't written on it as it's fascinating...

    If you compare the obverse box in the upper left (ET on coin below) and reverse box on the upper left (ALS on coin below) and where the date is located or how the date differs from 1621 to 16Z1, you can begin to see all the varieties, and I only did a simple search--I'm sure there are more. I think this was minted at the beginning of the Thirty Years' War (1618–1648) but not positive. I can understand the differences given that the Holy Roman Empire comprised numerous semi-autonomous regions, each with its own local governance and symbols.


    I believe these are all Hall mint & referenced as Davenport 3330:
    and I think these are different mints (Ensisheim & Upper Alsace):
    I've not found much on how many were minted/exist (other than PCGS saying they graded 17 of 3330 and coinarchives saying 33 went to auction). I don't think they are as common as the Maria Teresa Thaler from 1780 or minted over as many years but they seem quite common yet collectible.
  8. bernard55

    bernard55 Active Member

    For those that stumble on this forum post, here is the only thing in the standard book of world coins 1600-1700


    and this is what is currently in NGS:


    Here is what PCGS has:


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