Could anyone describe the commotion at today's coin show in Santa Clara? Upon entering the hall, I saw police but really didn't get the full story outside of a few snippets from my dealer friends. However, as time wore on, I did sense a few dealers were on edge, and here's where I unwittingly became drawn into today's events. I'm relatively new to this forum, but I hope this little story has some relevance to larger events at hand. The story begins when I visited a dealer—who shall remain nameless—to browse his inventory of Mexican coins. Here are the details because they are critical to this story. It's somewhat long, but hopefully to the point. This dealer takes two stacks of Mexican coins from his case (avg. value $15 each), and hands me one stack at the time, which I then inspect in loupe with both hands in plain view…and the dealer standing just 3ft away. When I finish one stack, I exchange it for another. I'm very methodical when buying, only inspecting one coin from a stack at a time, always keeping inventory in full view. After spending perhaps 10 min. with this dealer, I hand him the last stack and thank him for his time. The whole time, this dealer was standing in front of me, watching me (or so I thought). Ten minutes later, while at another dealer's table way across the hall, I was confronted by this dealer, who explained that his stack of coins I gave back counted up short (11 vs. 12), and asked if I could explain why? But, as he did not count these coins in front of me, I was at a loss to explain the discrepancy. So I simply asked him if he saw me do anything wrong? No answer from him, so in order to put him at ease, I proceeded to empty my wallet and every pocket on my person. However, this did not seem to put him at ease at all and he said something like "I don't want to insult you…you look like an honest guy, but then again the professionals look that way", casting another suspicious glance toward me. Honestly, I started to get a little ticked off at this point, and wanted this conversation to end because I could not see satisfying a guy who didn't think he miscounted (and he couldn't name the missing coin). Apparently, he didn't consider that a pro might not waste his time to steal a $15 coin? During the day, I handled many coins worth several magnitudes more than that one, allwhich mysteriously…did not disappear from dealer's tables. Obviously dealers need to protect their own interests, and with that in mind, may I offer a few suggestions to those who might read this forum: • If you're going to count stacks of coins, count them (out loud) when you hand them to the customer, and then count them when they're returned. Simple as that—like they do at banks. • Protect yourself, meaning do whatever you need to feel secure. Set things for your own peace of mind, and don't expect customers to "fill the gaps" by their own conduct, as they cannot possibly secure your own inventory. • If you feel you must confront a customer on something, it's helpful to come across with something tangible to resolve, rather than a vague suspicion that can neither be proven nor disproven (since we know the pros work "magic"). • Have you ever considered providing a feedback survey for your customers? Many businesses do it, whereby simply asking good questions you'll gain important insights into collector's needs while also serving as positive marketing. In my business, I've found that small contests entice people to fill out surveys. On the "other side of the coin", there's much that collectors can do to uphold their end, such as: • Don't give a dealer cause for worry. If you're looking at coins, keep them in full sight at all time. I may be a bit of a stickler, but if I need to get something out of my pocket…I put the coins down, stand up and remove my wallet, etc. I try to keep my hands visible at all times. I also don't bring bags which dealers might need to watch. Obvious, eh? • If you can, try to look out for anyone suspicious around dealer's tables. • Don't mix coins that you previously bought/own with coins you want to buy. Keep the dealer's coins in a distinct pile within their sight until they are paid for. I've even seen collectors wander away from tables with coins they don't yet own. • Some dealers don't like to haggle on the price—they'll let you know and respect that, end of story. I may be stating the obvious here, but today's events had me wondering. If you got this far, thanks for reading. :smile
Wow, you are a really nice guy. If that would have happened to me, they would have had to call the police again. The charge would have been assault not theft. My only other recourse would have been to ask how much the coin that he thought I stole was worth. When he replied $15, I could take a $20 bill out of my wallet and ripped off one quarter of it and handed him the rest. At that point I would have said, "I didn't steal you stupid little coin, but you are obviously a nut case, take your $15 and get the hell away from me."
You 2 both need to read http://www.cointalk.com/forum/t47929/. You will get an idea of some of the problems at the Santa Clara show.
Yes, Rlm is correct. Apparently Santa Clara had it's share of shysters this weekend. I will go public with this. A few shows back, I lost (3) 1924-D PCGS XF-40's.......and a handful of NGC 66 Reds........I only noticed when I sold the coins on my website and could not find them in inventory boxes. Cant put a timeline on it, but have become MUCH more aware of my surroundings when multiple buyers are at my table and I get overwhelmed. That is one of the reasons I hired a helper for shows. Keep everything " above the glass " and in plain view and you should be fine.
I did read it. It does not change my opinion of this dealer at all. I work in an industry where surveillance is needed everywhere to combat the thieves and grifters. I had a guy last week who couldn't pay his bill. We called the police to persuade him to pay up the $175. He told the police he didn't have the money. We asked the police to arrest him and they refused because it wasn't enough money. They told us to go to the police station and file a complaint and then they would issue a warrant for his arrest. Perhaps dealers at coin shows should buy a video camera and point it at their table. Works for casinos.
Rlm, Right--I read that, and I was at the show discussing it with dealers. I seem to recall someone was actually observed stealing. That's a tad different than missing one's count and jumping to conclusions w/o any supporting evidence--and coming at me without any real issue to discuss but suspicion. That speaks volumes to me. As I detailed quite clearly, I watch out for myself. If I might be so blunt, I call my scenario making somebody else responsible for one's own sloppiness. I'm only responsible for myself, and quite frankly don't really have to defend groundless accusations. Like Lehigh96 alluded to--it's good I'm a fairly level-headed person.
I agree completely Kurt. Accusing someone of theft without a high level of confidence or proof is very dangerous. IMO, thems fightin words. My guess is that most people would have ended up in a heated argument or a physical altercation. While I am at work, I have to be nice to idiots all day long. When I am not at work, I have a very short fuse for people who insult or offend me in anyway. I commend you Kurt on the way you handled yourself.
My point was not to say that everything went right to you Kurt. I was merely pointing out that there things going on to explain why people were on edge. Now that does not excuse the way you were treated, but it does give you a cause for the edginess. BTW, Lehigh, if you had so much as threaten physical violence, I woulde hope that the police would escort you straight to jail. As unpleasant (improperly unpleasant), nothing occurred deserving anything physical.
Lehigh96, Thanks...I usually have "ice in my veins", but this situation warmed me up a little bit. Rlm, yes--I know where you are coming from. I could feel the tension in the air, and I bet it changed things. Still gotta say this--the coin shows might now be considered a "soft target", and everyone needs to be on their toes (ie responsible)
Arizona Jack, Thanks! Well, I try I guess. Sorry about your theft--looks like you were targeted for easy to sell coins. I'm also worried this will be a trend at shows, and both collector and dealer need to look out for each other. :thumb: I do try to look out for people in teams, where one distracts and the other snatches.
Good Luck with that. Did you even read my previous post. The Atlantic City Police won't arrest you unless literally force them to. I get threatened on a weekly basis. Nobody has ever been arrested for it. We obviously live in two completely different worlds. Mine is full of criminals and basically, the under belly of society. IMO, my attitude is pervasive throughout every urban area in the Northeast US. The problem is that you can't hide from the danger, and having a demeanor like Kurt's can get you hurt in that environment.
LOL...well, I have an "urban face" that I don't wear to coin shows, where I try to put people at ease--not scare them. It would definitely be different if this guy came at me on the mean streets of the big city.
So sorry to hear that Kurt...but your story makes me want to be even more careful at shows. It's usually not a problem for me since I'm typcially looking at the high end stuff, one coin at a time and the dealer knows exactly what I have out of his case. However, there are times when I may have 4-5 high grades out at once...I think I'll just affirm that from now on with the dealer to be sure there's no misunderstandings. I would have done just like you, empty all my pockets (and volunteer to be frisked). Man, I couldn't stand the embarrassment of it all! That's really the worst part! At the show I usually go to all the dealers know me too....I would be devistated! Thanks for sharing, I'm going to raise my level of care so it could never happen to me.
Thad, Thanks--and I did not mind the question as much as he could not provide a single point I could either prove or disprove. I have nothing to hide. Obviously, it takes two people to make this work--and this guy needs to man up on his methods than lump it on collectors. My own methods are sound. I'd probably be more concerned, except that plenty of other dealers know and trust me by now--and when all of Saturday's events came up, I did not hesitate to tell them about it.
