What a head wound! (What is it?)

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by ValiantKnight, Mar 17, 2020.

  1. ValiantKnight

    ValiantKnight Well-Known Member

    I have this denarius of Gordian III and have been scratching my head as to what is going on here. Is it a fouree and the silver plating has broken off? Has the affected area turned into some sort of dark horn silver? Or what else? The reverse and the edge have no breaks like this; no other area on the coin has any copper-looking metal exposed like on here. Thanks.

    g31.JPG

    g32.JPG
     
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  3. Paddy54

    Paddy54 Well-Known Member

    Lamination peel... not mixing medal properly has been an issue in coinage from day 1. Nice example I supect a dug coin that when cleaned the peel broke off.
    The other surfaces look pitted from being in ground a long time.
     
  4. Bing

    Bing Illegitimi non carborundum Supporter

    Looks like a fouree to me.
     
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  5. furryfrog02

    furryfrog02 Well-Known Member

    I was thinking like @Bing. Is it a fourree?
     
  6. kevin McGonigal

    kevin McGonigal Well-Known Member

    The silver content of a denarius of Gordian III was still about 43 % pure which would still make producing counterfeit fourree coins profitable. I go with the fourree hypothesis.
     
  7. Marsyas Mike

    Marsyas Mike Well-Known Member

    Interesting coin. The "core" does look dark, but I am not sure if it is a fourree or just toned peculiarly.

    I have two denarii with planchet laminations that I am fairly certain the result of poor metal preparation rather than being fourree. I base this on visuals only:

    Faustina I

    Faustina I - AETERNITAS lot Aug 2017 (3).JPG
    Lucilla:

    Lucilla - Den. Pietas Mar 2020 RIC 775 (0).jpg

    Lucilla Denarius
    (Wife of Lucius Verus)
    (c. 164-169 A.D.)
    Rome Mint

    LVCILLAE AVG ANTONINI AVG F, bust draped right / PIETAS, Pietas standing left, holding acerrum, over lighted altar.
    RIC 775; RSC 50; Sear 1573.
    (2.93 grams / 17 mm)
     
  8. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    The fourree question is rather easy to solve but carries a price. If the coin is fourree, a scratch made in the dark area will look red or brown below the surface. If the coin is a lamination with crud filling the recess, the color below will be gray. It might be less objectionable to make a deeper scratch somewhere on the edge to see if there is red undr the silver. The photo looks like a fourree but photos lie. Not all plated coins were plated using the same 'recipe' so it is doubly hard to diagnose questionable coins without cutting them in half. That is going way, way too far!

    My guess is fourree.
     
  9. Alegandron

    Alegandron "ΤΩΙ ΚΡΑΤΙΣΤΩΙ..." ΜΕΓΑΣ ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΣ, June 323 BCE

    That looks like a ... "Headache"

    I am no expert by any means... but, I see it as lamination peel, ergo, I would consider it a fourree in my collection.

    Check your records and ensure that you paid a fourree price for this little guy. They are collectable, but not at a contemporary issued coin price.

    :D

    Mine is ALL bronze / AE, but is a regular issue...

    RI Gordian III 238-244 CE AE As 25mm Hercules S-C.jpg
    RI Gordian III 238-244 CE AE As 25mm Hercules S-C
     
  10. Gary R. Wilson

    Gary R. Wilson ODERINT, DUM METUANT — CALIGULA

    I have a Hadrian sestertius that looks like someone blew part of the Emperor's head away.

    imgonline-com-ua-twotoone-ihHNVBwJaAIkcJ-Hadrian sestertius.jpg

    Hadrian (Augustus)
    Coin: Brass Sestertius
    IMP CAESAR TRAIANVS HADRIANVS AVG - Laureate head right, slight drapery on left shoulder
    PONT MAX TR POT COS III S-C ANNONA AVG in ex - Anonna standing left with cornucopiae, placing grain into modius; prow of ship behind.
    Exergue: ANNONAAVG



    Mint: Rome (119-121AD)
    Wt./Size/Axis: 26.00g / 33mm / 180
    References:
    RIC II, Hadrian 564
    Acquisition/Sale: kapolowe Ebay $0.00 8/17
    Notes: Jun 13, 18 - The Gary R. Wilson Collection
     
  11. lehmansterms

    lehmansterms Many view intelligence as a hideous deformity

    In my experience, the foil-wrapped fourrèes are very seldom seen this late. You will find presumably unofficial pieces from this reign and Philip's that were "silvered" in the manner which would not be done officially until the time of Gallienus' sole reign. I'd come down on the likelihood of it being a mechanical lamination over the possibility of it being an unofficial issue with a base metal core.
    This is an example of a "silvered" antoninianus of the era:
    [​IMG]
    Contemporary Copy of Philip I (244-7 AD) Antoninianus.
    21mm, 3.85g, 6h.
    Obv: IMP M IVL PHILIPPVS AVG. Radiate draped and cuirassed bust of Philip Sr. right.
    Rx: ROMAE AETERNAE. Roma seated left holding Victory and scepter.
    Prototypes: RIC IV 44b; RSC 169; SRCV 8952; VM 34.
     
  12. benhur767

    benhur767 Sapere aude

    Here's a plated imitation from my collection. The interior is reddish-brown in color:
    ela_hybrid-pietas_2019_0922_01_h.jpg
    Elagabalus. Æ plated “denarius,” hybrid ancient imitation, c. 218–22 CE. 3.06g. BMCRE —, RIC —, RSC —, Puchala Collection, Berk BBS 190, lot 209 (same dies). Obv: ANTONINVS PIVS FEL AVG; laureate and draped bust r. Rx: PIETAS AVG; Pietas veiled, standing l., dropping incense on altar at her feed and holding open box.
     
  13. Sulla80

    Sulla80 Well-Known Member

    I'm in the fourré camp - and I like your coin too much to think you should do many experiments on it - does it have a reverse?. Here's a Lycian drachm of Trajan with a scar on his cheek; his lips, and perhaps eyes too, lost to de-lamination.
    Trajan Lycia Lyres.jpg
    Roman Provincial, Lycia,Trajan (98-117), drachm (although I really want to call this a denarius), struck 89-90
    Obv: AYT KAIC NЄP TPAIANOC CЄB ΓЄPM, laureate head right.
    Rev: ΔHMЄΞ-YΠATB, two lyres; above, owl standing right, head facing.
    Size: 3.13g, 18mm
    Note: Butcher & Ponting in their 2015 book on "Metallurgy of Roman Silver Coinage", found compositional similarities between these coin and contemporary denarii minted in Rome, along with stylistic similarities, suggesting that this provincial coinage could have been minted in Rome, although compositional similarity could also be explained by common silver source i.e. recycled coins.

    Detail view:
    WIN_20200317_19_55_58_Pro.jpg
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2020
  14. lehmansterms

    lehmansterms Many view intelligence as a hideous deformity

    This piece also exhibits the "silver wash" (not really a wash, but this is hardly the first misnomer in the terminology) silvering technique rather than a foil wrap. I think the involved processes of foil wrapping with flux, additional heating to secure the foil to the core (possibly an acidic "pickling" to remove fire scale, too) and then striking, was a lot more appropriate for the value of a Republican or early Imperial denarius. By this time in the 3rd century, that technique was simply too labor intensive and no longer cost-effective for the marketplace value of the coins vs the threat of draconian punishment if detected.
     
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  15. benhur767

    benhur767 Sapere aude

    @lehmansterms thanks for the info about "silver wash." Gives me some insight into the why they would have done it this way versus foil (I didn't know about the foil wrapping technique).
     
  16. Severus Alexander

    Severus Alexander find me at NumisForums

    +1

    More appropriate, for sure, but in principle, the OP coin could be a foil wrap. Here's an existence proof of foil wrap dating to 256 or later:
    Screen Shot 2020-03-18 at 1.21.14 PM.jpg

    Here's a heavily cleaned wash-style fourrée ant of Gordian:
    Screen Shot 2020-03-18 at 1.30.09 PM.jpg

    If the flan crack at 2:30 on the obverse doesn't expose any core, my bet is that @Paddy54 is right and that it's lamination peel from improperly mixed metal.

    I'd be interested to hear what @Valentinian thinks.

    Speak for yourself! Personally I pay more for fourrées that are unusual in some way. :D
     
  17. ValiantKnight

    ValiantKnight Well-Known Member

    Thanks for all the comments/thoughts everyone. I just got my digital scale in today. Weighed my Maximianus Thrax denarius as a comparison and that came out at 2.7 grams, while the Gordian came out very close at 2.6 grams.
     
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  18. Alegandron

    Alegandron "ΤΩΙ ΚΡΑΤΙΣΤΩΙ..." ΜΕΓΑΣ ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΣ, June 323 BCE

    Yeah, I agree. I regretted posting the comment, as I rarely render any opinions... but, was too lazy to delete it. :)
     
  19. Severus Alexander

    Severus Alexander find me at NumisForums

    Oh piffle, nothing to regret. Normally what you said is exactly right, I just felt like sticking up for the numismatic underdogs with my quibble. It's all good! :happy:
     
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  20. Bing

    Bing Illegitimi non carborundum Supporter

    Titus 1.jpg
    TITUS
    Fouree Denarius
    OBVERSE: CAES VESPAS AVG TR P COS III, Laureate head right
    REVERSE: Foreparts of two capricorns springing in opposing directions, supporting round shield inscribed S C; globe below
    Struck at Rome, 80/1AD
    3.06g, 18mm
    RIC II 357 (Titus); RSC 497
     
  21. robinjojo

    robinjojo Well-Known Member

    Agree
     
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