Washington Contact Marks?

Discussion in 'Error Coins' started by Gusmyster, Apr 6, 2007.

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  1. Gusmyster

    Gusmyster Member

    A couple of sellers are listing the Washington Dollar with contact marks on ebay for sale. About a month ago I recieved two US Mint bags of Washington Dollars. Each of these bags contained one of these coins, image attached. It looks as though the coin was caught up and gouged by the letter inscription machine. What do you think?

    Also, I pulled about 20 coins from the two bags that have what appears to be a series of scratches between Liberty's face that extend under the raised relief and pop out on the other side in line with each other. Is this from improper polishing of the die (scratched die)? Sorry no photo of this one.

    myster
     

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    Gusmyster, Apr 6, 2007
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  3. Gusmyster

    Gusmyster Member

    Here's a fairly representative photo of the scratches...
     

    Attached Files:

    Gusmyster, Apr 6, 2007
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  4. JeromeLS

    JeromeLS Coin Fanatic

    I must say, the first coin pictured looks very like it is post mint damage, and the second one is just random bag marks...
     
    JeromeLS, Apr 6, 2007
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  5. Gusmyster

    Gusmyster Member

    Neitherof the photos show post mint damage or bag marks. I have multiple examples of both coins pictured that I pulled directly from a Mint-sewn bag sent directly to me from the mint. They are guaranteed untampered with. Both coins that in the photos I provided were posted on ebay by a person unknown to me.

    myster
     
    Gusmyster, Apr 6, 2007
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  6. sumorada

    sumorada Senior Member

    same here,as for the first coin shown i have several of these that have no edge lettering,and some with,i'm one of the few that believe the no edge lettering coins were not caused by a bin of coins not reaching the edge lettering machines,but rather a malfunction of the machine which allowed coins to pass without the lettering which would also explain the documented denver mint no letter ones, as for the other picture, IMO it's a poorly polished die.............thanks for sharing the pics.....
     
    sumorada, Apr 6, 2007
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  7. Conder101

    Conder101 Numismatist

    Just because they are in bags direct from the Mint doesn't mean they can't have post mint damage.

    Post mint damage simply means that something damaged them after they were struck it doesn't have any thing tp do with where the coin was or who had it when it was damaged.
     
    Conder101, Apr 7, 2007
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  8. Philly Dog

    Philly Dog Coin Collector

    If you every go through the mint tour and see the (I call then train coal cars )filled to the top with coins you can really understand how damage can happen
     
    Philly Dog, Apr 7, 2007
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  9. gatzdon

    gatzdon Numismatist

    Last time I went to the philly mint, all I saw were cloth covered windows. I did see a room where nobody was working and noted all the coin blanks all over the floor. I did complain that how can they charge for such a tour and they claimed what refund (the lady didnt get the joke). It was a very disappointing day. I've never gotten a chance to get back to philadelphia since.

    I still can't believe that they ship these dollars to the coin wrapping companies in $140,000 bags that are moved by forklift. Just one hard set down of that bag and every coin in the bottom half has instant bag marks.
     
    gatzdon, Apr 8, 2007
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  10. n_sandler4

    n_sandler4 Paul


    Conder, these were indeed damaged in the striking process. I have two of these coins with gouges on the edges. Both came from sealed rolls, and the gouges are in the same spot, on the "Trust" in "In God we Trust" and on "Unum." I believe that the coin in this picture probably has the gouges in the same location. I believe these coins were somehow ejected incorrectly from the edge lettering process.

    Here's some pictures of one of my coins with this error....

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    n_sandler4, Apr 8, 2007
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  11. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator


    Have you seen pictures of the edge die ? It is a large block with an arced slot cut into it that is the same thickness as the coins. It is open on both ends and the coins are rolled through the slot by a wheel. They roll in one end and out the other. There is no ejector, they just roll through.

    Do you understand what happens when the coin is run through it ? If you look at your picture where the gouge on the edge is you can see that the rim is there on top of the metal that has been pushed up. That means the gouge occurred after the coin left the edge die. Otherwise the metal could not have been pushed up. It would have been contained by the edge die itself because the slot in the die is exactly as thick as the coin itself. You can also see the ragged edges where the letters on the edge were cut by whatever made the gouge.

    So what made the gouge then ? You say it had to be done during the striking process because the coins came from a sealed roll. But that's not so because of the process the coins go through. As you know, after the coins are struck they go into large bags which are shipped out of the mint and to the Federal Reserve - or they are shipped in the same large bags to a private company who then rolls the coins for the mint. Either way, coins that end up in rolls go through several hands, other than those of the mint, before they end up in rolls. They also go through several more machines - counting machines, rolling machines and boxing machines.

    So when you think it all through it becomes obvious that the gouge was not caused by the striking process because it could not have been. It is damage that was caused, more than likely, by the rolling machine.
     
    GDJMSP, Apr 8, 2007
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  12. n_sandler4

    n_sandler4 Paul

    Well, I'd never thought I'd say this, but GDJMSP, I think you're wrong. Both of my coins have the gouge in the SAME two spots in relation to the edge lettering, as I stated in my earlier post. I think it is highly unlikely that I would find two coins damaged in exactly the same spots by the rolling machine. I understand your argument, but I still believe that it is possible that these were damaged in some way by the edge lettering process...
     
    n_sandler4, Apr 8, 2007
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  13. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Fair enough, but I'll repeat my question - have you seen pictures of the edge die ?
     
    GDJMSP, Apr 8, 2007
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  14. n_sandler4

    n_sandler4 Paul

    n_sandler4, Apr 8, 2007
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  15. n_sandler4

    n_sandler4 Paul

    I have not. Do you have some?
     
    n_sandler4, Apr 8, 2007
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  16. n_sandler4

    n_sandler4 Paul

    n_sandler4, Apr 8, 2007
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  17. sumorada

    sumorada Senior Member

    GDJMSP, this is a little off from the original topic but i'm curious about what your opinion is as to how several thousand coins got out of the mint without the edge lettering, do you think that they just did'nt go to the edge lettering machine or that a malfunction occured that allowed them to pass without lettering........or something else?
    i have a very high regard for you and your knowledge of coins, please let us know what your opinion is.thanks in advance..........eric
     
    sumorada, Apr 8, 2007
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  18. rlm's cents

    rlm's cents Numismatist

    Take a look at linky They (NGC) show a genuine no lettering GW. "This is a genuine Washington dollar with the edge lettering missing. The surfaces are original and unaltered and also show the fine vertical ejection marks. ." This tells me two things. 1 - The no lettering they show went through the edge lettering machine. 2 - There is some force envolved in ejecting the coin from the dye.
     
    rlm's cents, Apr 8, 2007
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  19. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator



    I do, they were published in Coin World. Unfortunately reproducing the pictures here would be a violation of copyright law. But in the interest of explaining this I will ask the editor permission to post them here.

    For those who have seen these pictures of the edge die, my explanation given previously is self evident. For the slot/groove that coins pass through make it impossible for the edge of the coin to be raised up like those in your pictures. And if the edge of the coin were raised up prior to passing through the edge die, the raised up edge would be pushed back down by the compression caused by passing through the die.

    Now, I have no explantion as to why the gouge appears in the same general area of some coins other than coincidence. I also suspect that similar gouges occur on other coins in different areas. You wish to believe that this is a striking error, I choose not to because logic dictates otherwise. But you can believe it if you wish, for I cannot prove otherwise. I can only suggest.

    But wish to remind you, the coins go through a half a dozen or more machines after the edge design is imparted to the coin. And it is far more likely that such damage is caused by one of these machines than it caused by the striking process. But I will happily submit that anything is possible.
     
    GDJMSP, Apr 8, 2007
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  20. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator


    Personally, I think they passed through the machine and that there was a malfunction. It occurred at both mints but apparently in far fewer numbers in Denver than in Philly. So if entire hoppers of the coins bypassed the edge process at both mints, why aren't larger numbers of them appearing from Denver ? I found one myself from a roll I purchased just to pass out to people - but only one.

    I also think that the high speed at which the coins pass through the edge die (1000 per minute) has something to do with it.
     
    GDJMSP, Apr 8, 2007
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  21. n_sandler4

    n_sandler4 Paul

    Well, I agree with you on that=p...I don't believe that there are 140,000 ( a whole bag) of these errors out there from the Philadelphia mint. There must have been a malfunction of some sort. Perhaps they simply forgot to load the dies in, the Philadelphia ones are scratched on the edge a bit....All I know is, I'm holding on to the 120-ish I have left =)
     
    n_sandler4, Apr 8, 2007
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