US - 1794 Talbot, Allum & Lee Cent (Private Issue)

Pictured is a 1794 Talbot, Allum, & Lee Cent (Copper).

Minting of these tokens was contracted by New York proprietors William Talbot, William Allum, and James Lee from Peter Kempson & Co. in Birmingham England. They were imported into New York to advertise their India trade business located at 241 Water Street, NYC. These tokens were brought into the U.S. in 1794 and 1795.

In 1796, facing a dire shortage of copper, the U.S. Philadelphia Mint purchased 140,000-150,000 of these tokens, believed to be unused and in mint state. U.S. Half-Cent planchets were cut from them. Faint traces of this token can be seen in some Half-Cent specimens, even today.

Particulars of this specimen include:

• Based on diagnostics, this specimen is a Fuld-4 / Breen-1032 / W-8590;
• This variety has the edge lettering "PAYABLE AT THE STORE OF -: -: -:"
• The planchet is well formed and solid, yet shows obvious traces of alloy imperfections based on color blotches on the obverse;
• This specimen shows moderate die wear and abrasion, based on the diagnostics provided by a Colonials dealer who I later had inspect it;
• Grade: Approximately VG10/F12;
• Rarity: URS-12 (approx 1000-1999 known specimens exist).

Any comments and thoughts about it are appreciated and welcomed!

Thanks, kindly.


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Nice write-up and coin...thanks for sharing!! :thumb:

I've always wanted one, but haven't found the right one, yet.

 

Great info.
So was this Talbot a Conder Tolken?

 

Yes, indeed. According to Bowers, in American numismatic circles, it's the most widely known.

 

Thanks I thought it was but it said nothing about Conder. The place and time looked right though
For being so common I don't recall that one.
And I own @40 of them.

 

As you have 40 (wow!)... Here's two references, though I bet you probably already know...

Whitman Encyclopedia of Colonial and Early American Coins, Q. David Bowers, (c)2009, pgs. 244-248

Walter Breen's Complete Encyclopedia of U.S. and Colonial Coins, Walter Breen, (c)1988, pgs. 102-104

 

The ones I have are not high grade like the ones people show here on CT. Mine are from vf to au but I like them.

I thought the book was the D and H book that is out of print and too expensive.
The ones you posted, do they tell much about them?

http://condertokenbook.com/

Have you seen that one?

 

I like that TA&L! Beautiful color and smooth planchet. Lots of detail left in the ship on the reverse. I think you did well.

 

Here is a link to a half cent I once owned that pertains to the original post. This 1797 half cent was struck on a Talbot, Allum, and Lee token.

http://www.cointalk.com/t57135/

 

Cool example! I'm not sure I would have parted with that, if I had it.

Duke -> I'm not a huge Conder Token guy. I don't have a copy of that book. Thus far, the two books I mentioned have been sufficient for me.

 

No it was not, but it comes the closest to a real connection between the US and the conder tokens. The Liberty and Commerce die was a "stock" die that was used on about half a dozen different Conder tokens.

That book is new, in fact I didn't know it was available yet. (which is odd because I signed up on the waiting list for notification when it became available about three months ago.) I've been waiting for it though, so I just purchased it.

D&H is the standard reference and it is out of print and expensive. It is also unlikely it will be reprinted again (Unless some of us that have PDF versions of the book do the reprinting.). That new Condertokenbook may wind up becoming the new standard. I'll know more after I get it downloaded.

 

Conder101 -> I am not a "Conder" expert, and I'm not trying to be ornery, could you be so kind as to explain why David Bowers (a giant in the Numismatic world) would state that indeed they are?

In Whitman Encyclopedia of Colonial and Early American Coins, Q. David Bowers, (c)2009, pg. 244, Bowers states:

"Talbot, Allum & Lee Cents
1794 - 1795
On the American numismatic scene the most widely known Conder tokens are those imported by Talbot, Allum & Lee in 1794 and 1795, to be placed into cirucluation to advertise the business..."

Thanks, kindly

CheetahCats

 

I'd be curious to find out what you think of this new book. I've recently begun collecting various Conder tokens, but have had a hard time figuring out prices, thus I've been avoiding ones with higher asking prices. I just got the email last night stating that the book is finally available for download. It looks to be great (I checked out the sample), but I have nothing to compare it to.

These are the questions I'd love to find out from a more seasoned collector of Conder tokens:

1. Is it actually a suitable replacement for the D&H book? Or is it better as a companion book? (They are marketing it as a replacement.)

2. Does it appear to be a good reference for pricing? Are they closer to collector prices or dealer prices? (Like most price guides, if it catches on it will actually determine the prices, so we can only hope it's accurate enough.)

3. Is it actually fast to use?


Thanks!

 

Nice

 

Dalton & Hammer is the authoritative text for the English products and includes all sorts of interesting information about original and mule tokens like the Talbot Allum Lee Liberty & Commerce and Myddleton pieces. As an aside, many people like to form Talbot Allum Lee/Liberty and Commerce Collection. There are a 1794 and 1795 Proof and Regular strike Talbot Allum Lees, a 1794 variety that omits the words New York on the reverse and 6 very lovely and historic mules like these illustrated below. With a little bit of work and hunting, except for the "No New York" Talbot and maybe the "York Cathedral" Mule, these are all fairly obtainable at the sub $2000 each level in decent grade. They form a very interesting and attractive collection.


And here is the same obverse muled to an unrelated 'Stork' reverse (which interestingly bears the date of 1793, making this a double-dated 1794/1793 token):

 

hey guys like the one on my avatar picture

 

CORRECTED Particulars of this specimen include:

• Based on diagnostics, this specimen is a Fuld-3 / Breen-1032 / W-8580; CORRECTION
• This variety has the edge lettering "PAYABLE AT THE STORE OF -: -: -:"
• The planchet is well formed and solid, yet shows obvious traces of alloy imperfections based on color blotches on the obverse;
• This specimen shows moderate die wear and abrasion, based on the diagnostics provided by a Colonials dealer who I later had inspect it;
• Grade: Approximately VG10/F12;
• Rarity: URS-5 (approx 9-16 known specimens exist). CORRECTION

1. Pursuant to Related Thread by RyanBrooks - 1794 Talbot, Allum & Lee Colonial New York Cent
2. Pursuant to Related Thread at Heritage Auction 384, Lot 402

 

Is this called the "severed head" or "Decapitated Liberty" variety?