It's arguable whether an unrecognized state can truly issue a "coin," as it can only be a coin if it is legitimately recognized as legal tender, and arguably only a recognized state can so recognize it. I suppose you could make a case that these are truly medals or maybe tokens if they can be redeemed for anything. Anyway I have one myself because I found it amusing... a Hutt River Province 5 dollar "coin" commemorating the inaugaration of Bill Clinton. I found it amusing because it seems directly based off the Kennedy half dollar, just replacing the legends and portraits. It's either a medal or NCLT depending on your point of view (I usually have a dim view of commemorative coins that commemorate a person or event that has nothing to do with the country that issue it, but this one was too funny to pass up!).
Troodon,the Hutt River Province Principality's coin & medal-coin series is a very difficult one to try & collect.The coins of Somaliland are also a very interesting series as well.I have got a few of the Somaliland coins,including the 2006 10 Shilling coins commemorating the signs of the Zodiac.These are priced at US$1.25each in Krause.It wasn't bad for US$12,plus postage. Aidan.
I've always found this argument interesting. So if a "recognized" state doesn't recognize them, they don't exist. But who "recognized" that first state? And what happens if some recognize a state and others don't? China wasn't "recognized" and admitted to the UN until 1972. Does this mean that none of the pre 1972 chinese coins are really coins? And when China was admitted they booted Taiwan out. Does that mean that current Taiwanese coins aren't real coins?
The current issue of Deutsches Münzen-Magazin has an article about new (2006-07) gold coins - very small and thus relatively inexpensive pieces. Depicted are: 1500F Rep.Congo "Treaty of Rome"; 1500F Côte d'Ivoire "Sanssouci Castle in Potsdam"; 1500F Benin "Martin Luther"; $1 Cook Islands "Henry VIII"; $1 Palau "John F. Kennedy"; and 10F Dem.Rep.Congo "Mona Lisa". Six more pieces that I do not intend to buy. Christian
That does at least work the other way round: If a recognized country (e.g. a member of the UN or, like Taiwan and the Vatican, of one of its sub-organizations) recognizes the country in question, I would not call it an unrecognized country. Now if some coin-issuing entity is not recognized by other countries, it gets more difficult. Transnistria for example is not diplomatically recognized by any other country. But the Transnistrian rubles look like coins and notes, and AFAIK actually circulate there. Andorra on the other hand is internationally recognized but its coins are issued for collectors only; they are not used in the country. Tough if not impossible to draw a strict line here. I use this rule of thumb: If a "coin" is issued by a "country" that (a) is not recognized by others and (b) primarily or solely uses anyother country's cash as means of payment, then that "coin" is not a coin ... Christian
Another question. What constitutes recognition? The Conch Republic issues passports which are accepted by other Carribean countries. (Unfortunately they haven't issued coins yet.) So if Taiwan recognizes them they are a country? Remember Taiwan is no longer a "recognized" country, at least by the UN. And who "recognized" the countries so they could join the UN? Basicly they recognized themselves and then closed the gates and said that no one else can recognize themselves.
Maybe you should not make UN membership your sole criterion here. Taiwan is a member of the WTO and the APEC for example - not UN organizations but international councils/cooperations - and has official diplomatic relations with about two dozen countries. Or take Switzerland. The country did not join the UN until 2002, and yet it had diplomatic relations with most other countries before that time. I don't quite see those "closed gates" ... Christian
Christian,Somaliland,although it is not yet a recognised country,it is actually a country that exists & covers the same territory as the British Somaliland Protectorate did. Somaliland will eventually have its independent status recognised,& will be admitted into full membership of the British Commonwealth once this happens. Aidan.
Well you might have some arguable cases there, but my point was about states that are not recognized by anyone. No state officially recognizes the Hutt River Province for example. I usually use UN recognition as a standard, or at least recognition by the former parent state. Not always a sufficent standard, but even among state not recognized by the UN, there exists at least some recognition of the state by some other state or entity independent of the state in question. China vs. Taiwan isn't a case of which state or the other is recognized, more of which government is considered to be the recognized government of the state in question. If that recognition is ever withdrawn it doesn't change the staus of coins minted before then. (Of course the UN standard doesn't really work to coins minted before the UN existed...) Still, Taiwanese coins and currency have a leagal tender status in Taiwan, and Taiwan is a recognized state in a way, just not recognized as a state indpendent of China (in much the same way Wales is a recognized state, though not one independent of the United Kingdom.) You may be interested to note that the company that minted and marketed coins in the United States was sued by the Postal Service on the grounds of mail fraud. The USPS's contention was that since the Hutt River Province was not a recgonized state, what they sold couldn't really be called coins, and marketing them as such constituted mail fraud. Result of the case ended with the company no longer allowed to market HRP "coins" as coins. Anyway don't want to start a debate about what does or does not constitute a recognized state... recognition can be arguable sometimes... but the point of this thread and what I was referring to was about states not recognized by anyone but themselves. Depending on how strict your definiton of "coin" is, what such states produce may or may not be considered coins. I doubt any of you would consider any round piece of medal I stamp with "1 Troodonian dollar" as a coin... and my state of Troodonia has exactly as much legal status as a state as does Hutt River Province, Sealand, etc. My country doesn't even has as much claim to statehood as Taiwan does, and neither do any of this places this club covers... and thus I don't consider any of what they produce coins. Medals sure, or at best you can even arguably call them tokens, but coins, no. That's the standard I go by anyway. Commemoratives or bullion, that are technically legal tender but not intended to circulate at their face value, are kind of a grey area though. Um, I think you're confusing "UN recognition" with "UN membership." They're not the same thing. A country can be recognized by the UN without being a member, which before 2002 was the case for Switzerland. (However, the reverse can not be true; a country can not be a UN member if they are not recognized by the UN.) Another example is Nauru... they've been recognized as an independent country by the UN since 1968, but did not join the UN until 1999.
Troodon,Nauru is one of the poorer member states of the British Commonwealth.Here's a link; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nauru . Aidan.
The article you linked described Nauru as independent since 1968 in the very first paragraph. It did join the Commonwealth in 2000; but that does not negate its status as an independent state.
You're right about that; corrected that in my post. It wasn't a member when I visited there; I hadn't heard it had joined the UN since then until I read that article. Still, between 1968 to 1999, it was a state that had UN recognition but not UN membership, which was my point in using it as an example of such, as was the case for Switzerland before 2002.
Nauru was also one of 2 special members of the British Commonwealth (between 1968 & 2000) - a category of British Commonwealth membership that has been discontinued since 2000.Tuvalu was the other special member. Aidan.
Um, I think you're right. My mistake. But my main point with regard to the UN is that the question whether it recognizes a country should not be the sole criterion here. And even a territorial entity that is not recognized by the UN nor by any of its members can be considered a country - in that regard, Transnistria comes (in my opinion) closer to being one than, say, Seborga or this Hutt River Province ... Christian
areas that issue currency and actually use those issues for daily commerce, i throw into my 'world banknote' section. areas that issue currency and a different issue prevails, i throw into my 'private issue' section. hutt river province may or may not actually use their own currency for transactions within their borders, but in the end it's still just a farm that 'seceded' when the farmer found a legal loophole. the actual population is still made up of the farmer's family, and as such i don't recognize hutt river as a functioning 'country'. the passports, overseas representatives, official titles, and citizenships they issue are fun gimmicks, but aren't any more valid than anything disneyland issues. disneyland is 'recognized' world wide as the 'magic kingdom' with mickey mouse as their 'king'. they have they're own functioning currency, all the employees are known as 'ambassadors', and anybody can buy a 'title' for their daughters to make them a disneyland princess. in the end, disneyland is just an amusement park. same thing with sealand. they may be in international waters, and can legally claim to be independent and sovereign...but in the end, they're still just an abandoned oil platform in the middle of the ocean. it's easier for me to consider transdniestra , kurdistan, or chechnya as countries. they have an actual population, borders, flags, governing bodies, and real world issues. if kurdistan or chechnya ever issue currency, i'd put them in my world banknote section instead of my private issue section. but private fantasy countries, (micronations), to me are just that...fantasies. they'll go next to my disney dollars and antarctica issues. either way, no matter what anybody calls them, i still collect them and find them interesting.
Yep, in the end, just collect what you like, whether they be coins, tokens, medals, banknotes, or whatever.
