In another thread the question came up on how to tell a 1797 cartwheel denomination from a photo that does not provide size references. The 2d has an extra leaf on the branch being held by Britannia. Below is an image that shows the difference.
I don't collect these, but it appears that some of the leaves are different sizes and/or shapes. What about the extra twig (center top-left)? Thanks! Chris
I accessed what photos I could find and it does seem that the 1d has a leafless stem just right of the leaf #1 on my drawing. I guess that means that those who don' want to remember the 3 vs 2 leaves trick have the option of remembering that 1d have the bare stem. Why? Probably because that was the way the die cutter made the first master. The question I have is not how to tell the difference but if the original designer made this change intentionally or if it was just an accident. If he had been just cutting the masters without intending them to be similar, there would be more differences.
The obverse busts are also quite different. The 1D has a taller skinny bust. The 2D has a very round head and a more protuding forehead. From PCGS website: The 1D: The 2D:
interesting coins but not very practical,made by matthew boulton in the soho Birmingham mint using james watts steam engine.the penny weighs one ounce the two pence two ounces.it was intended that shop keepers would use them as weights as well as money.it took boulton so long to complete his contract that although dated 1797 a lot were minted later.the order was not repeated so this is the only year of cartwheel coins. nice examples shown
We metal detectorists love these too! I have found 5 in three years and my son 1, my dad has 4 to his credit also.... They are a lovely loud signal at any depth, but unless found in pasture or soft loamy wet soil they often come out corroded by fertilisers.... I shudder at the number of roman coins rotting away nowadays far faster than they would have done in previous years due to intensive farming practice and modern fertilisers.....One farmer I asked for permission from (his land runs up to Stonehenge) and contains over 40 Barrows...said he would rather coins and artefacts stay in the ground; little does he know they are all slowly succumbing to the effects of his fertilisers and will be of no benefit to historians in ten years time....
3 prominent crests on the bottom waves on the 2 Pence compared to 2 on the 1 Pence and the 2 Pence hurts more if you drop it on your big toe.
There are two varieties of the 1797 One Penny one has 10 leaves and the other has 11 leaves in the wreath on the reverse. 11 leaves having a higher value as an example 10 leaves EF £275, 11 leaves EF £325.
interesting DD.....Do you have any pics of the two 1 penny coins, ie. 10 leaves and 11? this confuses the photo ID theory somewhat, especially if the extra leaf is where the twopence leaf is..
The two coins in my pic are mine and the one penny has 11 leaves, I will try and do a USB microscope shot of it soon.
Yes same number but different shape, I`ve shot both of mine with the microscope, the colour is wrong because I can`t turn the light off but you can see the difference. The best way to tell them apart is the head shape and the waves IMO.
Yes it is...10'oclock extra/missing leaf. In fact what is counted as the 11th leaf on the penny, is the stump or twig we referred to is it not......? so the 10 leaf penny is missing the twig at 110clock?
Here`s the 10 leaf One Penny variety, not my photo, I borrowed it from Tony Clayton`s site, I`m sure he won`t mind, he posts here.
The local auction has a cartwheel coming up in a group lot. I haven't seen it in hand yet but I may make a run at it if no one is really bidding
One thing I like about CT is that I regularly learn things. I have owned the 1d used in my photo for over 30 years and never knew it was a scarcer variation or that it would be considered 11 leaves (10 1/2 maybe?). Obviously I'm not a collector of modern coins but just got those two because they were different from the pack. Thanks for the education DD.
