Translation (German) please: Platinducaten (3-Rouble Platinum Coin)

Discussion in 'World Coins' started by Juan Blanco, Mar 10, 2013.

  1. Juan Blanco

    Juan Blanco New Member

    From Heidelberger Jahrbücher der Literatur XXII #3 1829

    Die im Art. X. im Voraus auf Platinmünzen genommene Rücksicht mag wohl zu früh kommen. Es ist nicht unwahrscheinlich, dafs die russ. Platinducaten auch ins westliche Europa gehen; aber in der ersten Zeit werden sie wie Schaumünzen eifrig aufgekauft werden. Dafs man in Deutschland aus Platin prägen werde, ist fürs Erste nicht zu erwarten, so lange jene russische Münze gut und gleichförmig beschaffen bleibt, und nicht über die Prägekosten gegen das rohe Metall vertheuert wird. Sonst liegt sowohl in der Härte als in dem höheren Preise eine Empfehlung, denn ein Zweiguldenstück würde in Platin nicht grösser als ein halbes Kopfstück seyn. — Das Verbot des Papiergeldes würde Rec. nicht anrathen, da dasselbe dem fraglichen Gegenstande fremd ist, Papiergeld ohnehin die Grenzen eines Landes selten überschreitet, auch mancherlei Creditpapiere mehr oder weniger mit dem Papiergelde gemein haben, weshalb die vorgeschlagene Bestimmung zu mancherlei Streitigkeiten Stoff geben könnte.

    YES I know GoogleTranslate but that's not good enough. Can any German-speaker please give refine? THANKS!

    >>The in Article X, taken in advance to platinum coins consideration may well come too soon. It is not improbable that the Russian Platinum Coin will arrive in Western Europe, but in at first tiin the beginning me they are being eagerly bought as medallions. That we'll dominate in Germany of platinum is not expected for now, as long as those procure Russian coin is well and uniformly, and will not vertheuert the minting costs against the raw metal. Otherwise, both in hardness than in the higher prices is a recommendation for a two gulden piece in platinum would not be-ing larger than half a head. - The prohibition of paper money would Rec not advice of as the same the question object is foreign paper money already exceeds the limits of a country rarely even many credit papers more or less common with the paper money have, why the proposed provision to many disputes could be material.<<
     
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  3. chrisild

    chrisild Coin Collector

    My rough translation - but keep in mind that you want a text translated that was written about 200 years ago, in a language (style) that may have been common back then ... :rolleyes:

    The consideration shown, in advance, to platinum coins in Art. X may come too soon. It is not improbable that the Russian platinum ducats also go to Western Europe, but in the first time they will, like the Schaumünzen*, be eagerly bought. For the time being it is not to be expected that in Germany platinum coins would be minted, as long as that Russian coin is good and of constant quality, and not be made more expensive than the raw metal by the minting costs. Otherwise there is a recommendation in the hardness as well as in the higher price, as a 2 Gulden coin would, in platinum, not be bigger than a half Kopfstück** — Prohibiting paper money is something that the author/critic would not recommend as it is alien (?) to the subject in question, as paper money rarely goes beyond the borders of a country anyway, and as several credit papers have more or less in common with paper money, which is why the proposed regulation/destination*** could be the reason for various disputes.

    * coins not intended for circulation, mostly given as presents
    ** The "Kopfstück" (from Italian testone) was a large silver coin, originally from Milan but later minted elsewhere too
    *** various meanings depending on context

    Christian
     
  4. Juan Blanco

    Juan Blanco New Member

    Thank you Christian!
    As you might see, I am trying to ascertain the seignorage and (unpublished) market price of Platinum in the German estimation.

    Is the following correct? Although only the size is germane to me, I would gather the "1/2 Kopfstück" in Silver was worth (according to the valuations below)

    1) In Bavaria, 12 (old?) Rheinish Creutzers, 10 Convention Creutzers and 3.5 Silbergroschen (Rthlr Banco 0.14583?) In Frankfort, there was a 20% premium on coin, however! 1ozt Fine Silver sold for 40.1 Fl. Conv. M.
    2) The 10-Cruetzer weighed 3.89 grams (.583 Fine). Where a 20 Creutzer weighed 59.64 grains (English Troy) Fine Silver, then the 10 Creutzer weighed 0.2125 w/ 0.061875 ozt Fine Silver.
    3) The 10-Creutzer was 24 mm in diameter, the same size at the Capped Bust Quarter (6.74g 0.890 Fine)
    4) Combining Specific Gravities(Ag & Cu), 1 cc of Creutzer alloy should weigh 9.84 g; 1 cc (Russian-refined/1828) Platinum weighed 20.7 g. Imagined 2-Gulden(Fl.) piece ought to weigh ~8.18 g.
    5) The imagined 2-Fl coin would, at contemporary exchange rates, have been "worth" USD$ 0.96862 - effectively, a Dollar.
    6) The 1828 3-Rouble Coin actually weighed 10.35 g. and was valued (by 3-Silver Roubles) at Fl. 4.625, in impossible contradiction unless an enormous seignorage applies in both cases.

    The German and Austrian Mints had no Pt local supply to create such coins anyway, but none of the accounts mention local market-price for Platinum. The Russian Platinum coinage scheme failed from the start (Flügel reported the coin traded at -17% discount in 1834); SPb merchant knew the intrinsic (Ru) rate was >35% overvalued, a ruinous money-trade.

    In the USA several years later, fmr President John Quincy Adams tried to calculate the value of a hypothetical USD Platinum coin likewise: http://noblemetals.blogspot.com/2010/08/usa-1831-us-platinum-coinage-mentioned.html

    From Vollständiges handbuch der münzen, masse und gewicht aller länder... Johann Friedrich Krüger (1830) p. 140:
    Kopfstück wird im Allgemeinen jede Münze mit einem Brustbilde genannt; doch erhalten an verschiedenen Orten einige Silbermünzen, z.B. die Zwanzigkreuzerstücke, vorzugsweise diesen Namen.
    1) In Baiern und HessenDarmstadt hat man ganze, halbe und Viertel-Kopfstücke zu 24, 12 und 6 kr. Rhein, aus 9 löthigem Silber. Das ganze Kopfstück hat einen Werth von 7 preuß. sgr. — 5 gr. 4 pf. Conv. — 20 kr. Conv. fl. — 24 kr. Rhein.
    2) In Bremen führen die Zwölfgrootstücke diesen Namen; 2 machen ein einfaches, 4 ein doppeltes Drittelstück, 6 einen Reichsthaler; ein Kopfstück enthält 3 Flinrich oder 8 Schilling oder 12 Groot oder 60 Schwar, und hat einen Werth von 5 sgr. 3 pf. preuß. — 4 gr. Conv. — 15 kr. Conv. fl. — 18 kr. Rhein.
    3) In Dänemark ist ein Kopfstück aus wöchigem Silber — 20 Schilling oder 24 alte Schilling — 7 sgr. 10 Z pf. preuß. — 6 gr. Conv. 22.5 kr. Conv. fl. — 27 kr. Rhein.
    4) In Frankfurt a. M., Oberhessen u. a. O. gehören 3 Kopfstücke zu einem Conventions-Gulden, und ein Kopfstück hat einen Werth von 5 Batzen oder 10 Albus oder 20 Kreuzer — 7 preuß. Sgr. — 5 gr. 4 pf. Conv. — 20 kr. Conv. fl. — 24 kr. Rhein. Wie in Baiern sind auch hier halbe und Viertel - Kopfstücke in Umlauf.

    From The merchant's assistant, or, Merchantile instructer ... Georg Thomas Flügel, Francis Joseph Grund (1835) p.164
    1 Kopfstücke = USD$ 0.162028, so 1/2 Kopfstücke was worth $0.081014 ... as 70 per Cologne Mark= 0.1074 Troy Ounce (3.34 g)
     
  5. chrisild

    chrisild Coin Collector

    Oh dear ... :) Guess this requires an expert, which I am not when it comes to historic currencies and their possible exchange rates. I know that the multitude of currency systems in the German countries back then made trade - particularly cross border trade - quite complicated, and that it took several conventions (Munich 1837, Dresden 1838, Vienna 1857) to alleviate the problem.

    This is from a book published in the late 18th century: http://www.zeno.org/nid/20000273252 (values refer to the 1, or full, Kopfstück). According to the Brockhaus link on that page, from about 100 years ago, the term Kopfstück was used for the 20 Kreuzer piece in Austria and Southern Germany. But being a collector of modern stuff whose first language happens to be German ;) I cannot really help with that ...

    Christian
     
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