For years I have seen dealers trading and trafficking in coins holdered by questionable grading services such as Accugrade, NNC and Numistrust; some of them are members of the Professional Numismatic Guild. Their code of ethics states the following: [h=1]PNG Code of Ethics[/h] [TABLE="width: 458"] [TD="width: 518"]Professional Numismatists Guild membership standards are strict. One of the requirements is an agreement to adhere to the Code of Ethics. Each PNG member takes the following pledge:[/TD] [/TABLE] [TABLE="width: 481"] [TR="bgcolor: #d3d3d3"] [TD="width: 18"]1.[/TD] [TD="width: 506"] To furnish sound advice to my non-professional customers on numismatic matters to the best of my ability. [/TD] [/TR] [TR="bgcolor: #ffffff"] 2. To deliver coins that I sell promptly unless otherwise agreed between myself and my customer. [/TR] [TR="bgcolor: #d3d3d3"] 3. To pay for coins I have purchased promptly unless otherwise agreed in writing between myself and my customer. [/TR] [TR="bgcolor: #ffffff"] 4. To refrain from misrepresenting the prices, quality or guarantees attached to my merchandise or that of my competitors. [/TR] [TR="bgcolor: #d3d3d3"] 5. To assist governmental authorities in investigating and prosecuting dealers in numismatic items when appropriate. [/TR] [TR="bgcolor: #ffffff"] 6. To refrain from knowingly dealing in stolen numismatic items. [/TR] [TR="bgcolor: #d3d3d3"] 7. To refrain from knowingly dealing in counterfeit, altered or repaired numismatic items without fully disclosing their status to my customer. [/TR] [TR="bgcolor: #ffffff"] 8. To grade coins accurately to the best of my ability and in accordance with recognized industry standards (or disclose fully my particular grading standards and how they may differ from recognized industry standards). [/TR] [TR="bgcolor: #d3d3d3"] 9. To refrain from any of the following in dealing with non-professional customers: (a) buying or selling at unreasonable prices; (b) using high pressure sales techniques; (c) using misleading performance data; (d) comparing coins graded by a fringe grading service with those graded by an industry standard independent grading service in a way calculated to create an inaccurate impression; (e) intentionally misrepresenting the origin, provenance or pedigree of a coin; (f) intentionally misrepresenting the weight of a coin; (g) intentionally misrepresenting the value of a coin. (h) intentionally misrepresenting the investment potential of coins; (i) intentionally misrepresenting an affiliation between myself and any Government agency. [/TR] [TR="bgcolor: #ffffff"] 10. To make an oral or written disclosure to my retail customers that (a) the coin market is speculative and unregulated; (b) many areas of numismatics lend themselves to third-party grading and authentication; (c) certification does not eliminate all risks associated with the grading of coins; and (d) as a PNG member, I am obliged to arbitrate any dispute relating to the purchase, sale or trade of coins and numismatic items. [/TR] [TR="bgcolor: #d3d3d3"] 11. To respect my contracts with all parties to numismatic transactions, whether written or oral. [/TR] [TR="bgcolor: #ffffff"] 12. To respect my fellow members' contracts with third parties and not interfere with same. [/TR] [TR="bgcolor: #d3d3d3"] 13. To freely exchange non-proprietary information with my fellow members when requested to do so. [/TR] [TR="bgcolor: #ffffff"] 14. To refrain from intentionally defaming the character of a fellow member or the quality of that member's products or services for commercial advantage. [/TR] [TR="bgcolor: #d3d3d3"] 15. To give evidence at PNG arbitrations upon request. [/TR] [TR="bgcolor: #ffffff"] 16. To honor the provisions of PNG arbitration awards to which I am a party. [/TR] [TR="bgcolor: #d3d3d3"] 17. If I am in the business of conducting public auctions of numismatic items, to abide by guidelines issued from time to time by the PNG Board. [/TR] [/TABLE] Binding Effect [TD="width: 451"]This Code of Ethics shall be binding upon all PNG members and their registered representatives and employees, as well as on any non-member affiliated with any entity that (A) utilizes the PNG logo or trademark; (B) has a bourse table at a PNG-sponsored convention; or (C) is owned by, or employs, a PNG member.[/TD] [TABLE="width: 454"] Conduct Prejudicial to PNG [TD="width: 446"]Violations of the Code of Ethics shall constitute conduct prejudicial to the PNG for purposes of these By-Laws and may subject violators to censure, suspension or expulsion from PNG, in addition to any other remedies available under these Bylaws or applicable [/TD] [/TABLE] http://www.pngdealers.com/category.php?category_id=6 So, no one wants to be the enforcer, it is not very pleasant or fun. How does enforcement usually happen?
Curious, but just which code do you think is necessarily violated by "dealers trading and trafficking in coins holdered by questionable grading services"?
I'm wondering too. I sometimes see dealers selling basement slabs but they are upfront about them and offer a realistic grade themselves or a "problems" opinion. I have yet to meet a dealer that stood by a basement slab.....except maybe an older PCI slab.
I would point to these citations in the code of ethics: 8.[TD="class: cms_table"]To grade coins accurately to the best of my ability and in accordance with recognized industry standards (or disclose fully my particular grading standards and how they may differ from recognized industry standards).[/TD] [TR="class: cms_table, bgcolor: #d3d3d3"] 9. To refrain from any of the following in dealing with non-professional customers: (a) buying or selling at unreasonable prices; (b) using high pressure sales techniques; (c) using misleading performance data; (d) comparing coins graded by a fringe grading service with those graded by an industry standard independent grading service in a way calculated to create an inaccurate impression; (e) intentionally misrepresenting the origin, provenance or pedigree of a coin; (f) intentionally misrepresenting the weight of a coin; (g) intentionally misrepresenting the value of a coin. (h) intentionally misrepresenting the investment potential of coins; (i) intentionally misrepresenting an affiliation between myself and any Government agency. [/TR] Read more: http://www.cointalk.com/t191209/#ixzz1WYU0Lcmf The question is what is a reputable dealer doing having fringe grading service coins in his/her case or inventory? I bought a couple of those holders recently and sent them to NGC. The result was as follows for the two MS64 NNC and Numistrust coins: [TR="bgcolor: #fffccc"] [TD="class: tabledata"]004 [/TD] [TD="class: tabledata"]1925 [/TD] [TD="class: tabledata"]D [/TD] [TD="class: tabledata"] [/TD] [TD="class: tabledata"]$2.5 [/TD] [TD="class: tabledata"]UNC DETAILS [/TD] [TD="class: tabledata"]IMPROPERLY CLEANED [/TD] [TD="class: tabledata"] [/TD] [/TR] [TR="bgcolor: white"] [TD="class: tabledata"]005 [/TD] [TD="class: tabledata"]1928 [/TD] [TD="class: tabledata"] [/TD] [TD="class: tabledata"] [/TD] [TD="class: tabledata"]$2.5 [/TD] [TD="class: tabledata"]AU 58 [/TD] [/TR] I was surprized that the second coin graded frankly. Who is hurt when selling such coins? I guess the people who don't have the best vision, who later find out that their coin is not worth what they thought it was.
With badthad on this. All the reputable dealers I use are up front about these type holders(including ANACS). Sometimes I can get a bargain when they have one of these in and price them cheap enough. As for your experience I don't want to sound harsh, but what did you grade them? Depending on the coin sometimes I am not good enough to tell AU58 coin from MS coin, nor can I tell always tell a cleaned coin. But I do know to stay away from the questionable holders if I am not positive on everything about the coin. Also I am confused that if you were surprised the second coin graded, why did you send it in? And why did you buy it? I think I understand what you are saying Code of Ethics and maybe you can file a complaint with the ANA. Not sure what would happen with that.
Because a dealer is selling such coins in no way directly correlates to his violating any code, and because your dealer may have done so in no way hints that all dealers do so. I personally have bought several coins graded by your "questionable grading services" and been quite satisfied with most. They may not have been up to the grade on the slab, but then that is what I bought them as. BTW, where does "Trafficking in Doctored Coins" enter in here?
What makes you think that just because the coin is not in a top two holder it is doctored? I am not saying all of them are not but many search the older holdered second tier coins for the good stuff that went in those holders too. A good dealer has to search for the needles in the stack just like a collector looks for the cheeries.
I think the issue is trading items that the dealer knows are overpriced, or problem coins. It raises the question of what should be done with these coins, that are a problem and always will be, because they are damaged by numismatic standards? Look at a few examples of the NNC product: http://www.northeastcoin.com/popupcontainer.jsp?include=/popup/viewimage.jsp&itemkey=zi20_2012809 http://www.northeastcoin.com/popupcontainer.jsp?include=/popup/viewimage.jsp&itemkey=zi20_2042987 The two coins are in NNC holders, frankly if you look at the images and the grades, it is a laughable situation, but some people may be fooled, even though the dealer has made notes as to the actual details grades of the coins. They are details grade cleaned coins and always will be--they wouldn't even tone to cover the problems on the moon!
Well I think northeast met the code of ethics. I think the coins are reasonable priced for the information they provided. Now I only checked the 1863 double eagle on heritage and I am not sure it would be AU58 and I know nothing about gold so I could be wrong. BUT if I was interested in that 10k coin I would ask northeast to first cross it over to pcgs or ngc. If they wouldn't, then I would not buy it. From what I have seen(with what I do collect) northeast is more than fair with the pricing on coins - problem or non-problem coins. Then again I don't even look at the lower tier tpgs like NNC. Just my humble opinion.
Details graded coins unless they are really rare are worth a lot less. I did look at that very coin and it is cleaned, cleaned, cleaned, from whatever angle you look. AU 50s are worth around $4000, but only if they are no problem coins. I have owned a couple. Try calling up the major buyers and see what they would offer for better date or rare details grade coins. You ship to them, they will make you an offer commensurate with the market. They have to find someone willing to put down real money on a piece he/she will have to look at for as long as they own it and then will have to find a buyer down the road for the same coin.
If you are trying to remove all thing that CAN be abused, why don't you start with the automobile? If nothing else, that cost us about 40,000 lives per year. In other words, go after the abusers and don't punish everyone for the sins of a few. Virtually everything CAN be abused, but that does not mean that everything should be banned.
Many times I've been at a dealers table, and picked up a slab with a high ms# and apply the loupe and remark to myself, "no way". Then I look closer at the slab and see that it's one of the "basement" varieties. YOU, are the person in charge.....YOU make the final determination. If the coin doesn't cut it with respect to the grade, pass it up. That's why knowing how to grade is so essential for anyone who wants to participate in this hobby. As to the general public? Let the buyer beware.....and hopefully they've done their homework, but if they haven't Owle, then there's nothing you can do to save them. They have to own up to a certain responsibility related to themselves, and if they're not equal to that task, they will be burned. Can't save the world dear fellow. It's a jungle out there.....
I don't know if the rules here prevent the posting of doctored coins; there is quite a range from the badly done jobs to the exquisitely done ones. Here are a couple of doctored common gold coins: http://coins.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=210052&lotNo=22716&lotIdNo=8133#Photo http://coins.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=210052&lotNo=22723&lotIdNo=8111 In my experience ICG is more likely to holder such coins, and since they are essentially bullion coins with slight premiums, it is not the same as an MS64 certified coin with a huge spread between AU and that grade.
What makes you think either of those coins have been doctored in any way ? I see nothing to make me think so. And I'd bet either of those would cross to NGC or PCGS with no problem.
The surface residue. I remember examining them as seeing the stuff on the surface and to me it looked mighty suspicious. Do you have any varied pictures of doctored coins?
The dealers I deal with crack out coins from basement graders when they obtain them. I think that is the best policy myself. It takes away even the appearance of impropriety.
Your view is a bit extreme to say the least. Some people actually collect the older slabs of now defunct companies. These sellers aren't ripping anybody off, they are simply offereing a broad array of coins. I'm sure if there is ever a time that they run into something that is overgraded, they probably avoid it. Stick around and you may learn something.
You are certainly welcome to submit to this company: http://www.nnccoingrading.com/ It is kind of like the motto beneath the Statue of Liberty from Emma Lazarus, but only in this case it is coins: "Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore". As to the original intent of my post, I have yet to see anyone post actual doctored coin pictures, proven to be so. It doesn't mean there aren't any, just that no one has submitted such a picture here. Maybe people are afraid of a lawsuit; I am not threatened by anyone no matter how rich or powerful.
