Trade Dollar Grade

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by Sting 60, Nov 25, 2023.

  1. geekpryde

    geekpryde Husband and Father Moderator

    Polished/ Whizzed with a side dish of Graffiti.

    Yes, I am very late to this party!
    Mainebill likes this.
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  3. johnmilton

    johnmilton Well-Known Member

    There are variations in the size and placement of the mint mark can vary on these coins. So that might not be a determining factor. Mint mark were hand punched during this era.
    Collecting Nut likes this.
  4. Collecting Nut

    Collecting Nut Borderline Hoarder

    Thanks as I wasn’t sure.
  5. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    There is more than one position for the MMKs on this date. Whizzing changes the shape of a coin's relief.
  6. fiddlehead

    fiddlehead Well-Known Member

    Re: chop marks. It seems that NGC still considers chopped trade dollars to be "details". The coin is in my NGC registry, but not recognized as an XF40 grade, despite the CAC designation. I agree that it is historical and unlike environmental or accidental damage. I was very excited that CAC accepted the PCGS XF40 grade (I sent it to them myself)
    ksparrow, ddddd and KSorbo like this.
  7. johnmilton

    johnmilton Well-Known Member

    When I was a dealer, I saw Trade Dollars that had a chop mark or two that were straight graded by the top two services. The mark was “hidden” within the design elements, and was not conspicuous. This was 20+ years ago.
    Insider likes this.
  8. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    In those days the 2 major TPGS missed expertly repaired chops into the reverse design of the eagle's wings. You need to be looking for it.
    fiddlehead, Mainebill and charley like this.
  9. charley

    charley Well-Known Member

    I 100% support Insider's comment.

    TPGs had another evaluation challenge, because there are quite a few that have a Chop that is not a Chop, in the historical time period or language proper markings. Some are ridiculous in translation...along the lines of "bad ship", "king" "corea in China", etc.

    Alas, it is still going on.

    There are still fake chop marks in TPG Holders.

    I am constantly surprised that there is a wide belief that TDs were only used in China. No. Just, no. Japan, Korea, East Asia, East Indies, etc., and Chops may may have an appearance of being Chinese language, because the funny sticks and swirls all look alike, but they are not.

    This has been a Charley Talk.


    PS: There are a few older referral books out there, that are wonderful sources of info.
    KSorbo likes this.
  10. KSorbo

    KSorbo Well-Known Member

    Were the fake chops “contemporary counterfeit chops” or are they more recent? Why would someone put a fake chop on a genuine coin when the same coin without chops is worth more?

    Also I wonder if chops will become a more popular area of collecting in the future, especially considering the growth of Chinese numismatics.
  11. charley

    charley Well-Known Member

    Yes. To all.
  12. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    Allow :bucktooth: me a stupid question. What is a contemporary counterfeit chop? Is it a fake chop on a 19th Century counterfeit Trade dollar? Just because it is done today, why would someone put a fake chop on a genuine coin in the 1800's?
    Jack D. Young likes this.
  13. KSorbo

    KSorbo Well-Known Member

    If a chop made the coin more likely to be accepted in commerce, why wouldn’t they add a fake chop? Weren’t chops intended as a mark of authenticity?

    Or maybe someone was just bored. That could have happened in any time period.
    Mainebill, Insider and charley like this.
  14. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    KSorbo, posted: "If a chop made the coin more likely to be accepted in commerce, why wouldn’t they add a fake chop? Weren’t chops intended as a mark of authenticity?"

    YES. I know counterfeiters are putting fake chops on fake coins so they will pass better as genuine or be attractive to collectors but I didn't know this practice was popular in the 19th Century.

    Thanks, now I understand. When the coins were contemporary, someone took an unchopped genuine Trade dollar and put a fake chop mark on it to let people know it was genuine. Or someone took a genuine Trade dollar that was already chopped with genuine chops and added a fake chop. None of this makes sense but I guess it could happen. Now you have my attention. Where did you hear/read about this.
    Mainebill likes this.
  15. KSorbo

    KSorbo Well-Known Member

    I haven’t heard or read about fake chops anywhere other than in this thread, except maybe vaguely. I’m just making a logical deduction based on @charley ’s description. It wouldn’t make much sense for a modern day collector to devalue a genuine coin. But if Chinese chops made the coins more acceptable in international trade, even outside of China, then it would make sense for someone to add fake chops. A non-Chinese speaker would be likely to get the characters wrong.
    fiddlehead and Jack D. Young like this.
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