Toning in the slab - Coin Chemistry

On a thread titled "Prone to tone !", we discussed why some coins are more likely to tone than others.

On that thread, the book "Coin Chemistry" by Weimar White came up. I'm reading it, and he describes an experiment in which he exposes slabbed coins to hydrogen sulfide gas (which oxidizes and tones coins).

His experiment suggests that coins can tone inside the slab. Further, his findings suggest that newer slabs are less permeable and better sealed, thus less susceptible to toning.

Does anyone have any experience with this ?

Have you experienced toning inside the slab ?

And here's my Really Big Question : Are Coin Doctors doing artificial toning on slabbed coins ?

If so, what telltale signs should one look for ?

 

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It certainly is possible that a coin in a slab can tone if exposed to high enough levels of hydrogen sulfide gas for a long enough period of time. As Doug has pointed out, no holder is air tight.

However, Weimar's experiment with regards to this only proved that the slabs were not air tight. He does not do an analysis of the concentration of hydrogen sulfide gas in the experiment compared to concentrations in normal atmospheric conditions. Therefore, the time that it took the slabbed coins to tone in his experiment are completely meaningless. If he had completed an actual scientific experiment and concluded that a slabbed coin runs the risk of toning after 100 years of exposure under normal atmospheric conditions, nobody would have cared that the slabs were not air tight.

As you know, my entire collection is predominantly rainbow toned. I have never seen any of my toned coins turn in their holders. If I do see one turn, it will lead me to believe that the coin was AT to start. Most rainbow toned coins are not a result of exposure to atmospheric hydrogen sulfide gas. They tone because they had direct contact with a sulfur rich toning source (eg canvas bag, album, etc). Once the coin is removed from the source of the toning, the toning stops. The silver sulfide layer on the surface of the coin can't get thicker if the source of sulfur is removed. The sulfur in the silver sulfide layer can't make babies and grow like a virus. Unless a slabbed coin is stored improperly in an atmosphere that is rich in hydrogen sulfide gas, you will not be able to see any discernable change in appearance of the coin for many many years.

Your question about the slabbed coins that are undergoing an AT process is extremely important. This can and does happen. It is also much harder to spot since the coin is in a slab which is supposed to indicate market acceptability of the toning's originality. Even if you see one of these coins and suspect the coin is AT, your first though will be that the TPG considers that type of toning to be market acceptable. My only advice in this regard is to become familiar with the traditional toning patterns and colors for a particular series before purchasing rainbow toned coins. Even then, if a slabbed coin doesn't look right, don't buy it. I say this only for the collector's that find it of the utmost importance to avoid AT coins. I am not one of those collectors and will knowingly buy a slabbed AT coin if I find the eye appeal of the coin such that it overcomes the AT stigma.

In closing, there are no real telltale signs that a coin has been toned after it has been slabbed.

 

Coins will and do tone in holders, here is an old thread that I have saved on the subject. It brought down a very respected member of the CU forums and wreaked havoc on several registry sets:

http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=535409

Edit: this is about artificially toning them

 

True. He points that out in the writing; he intentionally immersed them in a very high concentration H2S atmosphere to accelerate the process. The experiment lasted only 60 minutes to blacken a slabbed Morgan (old rattler PCGS). Newer slabs were much better.

True. And a valuable thing to know for those paranoid about toning eating their coins away.

Coin doctoring. Tantamount to fraud, forgery, and counterfeiting. :headbang:

Time for a beatdown ! :hammer:

 

I suspect that the number of coin "dippers" are far more prevalent than coin "toners" and yet the only usual comment is if it isn't done right, it affects the coin's luster and thus value."Toners" get 1000 post threads written about them and the offense ( diff. forum).

Since toning can be stopped by removing from the causitive substance, what is the reason for dipping other than to try and improve the value?

I imagine that there are few old time dealers or collectors who have not used a dip before, but many would be aghast to admit using a toning solution.

So how is it OK to dip , but not tone?

Jim

 

I guess it's because in dipping you're trying to make the coin look like it once did , AT is akin to trying to make a coin look like something it never was , to me that's a big difference , no fraudulent intent .
rzage

 

RZ, I assume you are talking about a coin that you intend to keep rather than sell. If a person is going to keep a coin, I see no reason why they can't do anything they want to it. But if it is to sell it, dipping is just as fraudulent as toning. I understand your statement about looking as it once did, but what about looking as nature dictates.

But, this is just a philosophical thought. I have never really understood why dipping is so accepted and other "enhancements" aren't. Hope no one takes that sentence out of context.

Jim

 

yeah, I have an MS wheatie in an ANACS holder that has a few little spots that look like the beginning of some corrosion...probably weren't there when it was originally slabbed!

 

Well I respect most of your posts , can't think of one I didn't , on this point I guess we'll have to agree to disagree .
rzage

 

Jim one last thought , as I don't plan on selling any of my coins and intend them to stay in the family , coins aren't really ours , they will outsurvive us and may despite our best efforts to keep them in the family , eventually will find their way into other peoples hands .
Rusty

 

And I return my respect for you and your postings. No problems there. And I certainly have had many people I highly respect disagree with me, and repeatedly!! I don't take it personally.

It is different from most collectibles where the original finish is preferred over a cleaned or "refreshed" finish. If they ever make an "Old man" dip, I will be there :hail:. See how flexible I am

Jim

 

and I'll be in line right behind you .
Rusty

 

Wait a sec Lehigh, didn't you post an ASE that toned in the slab?

As far as toned coins that are already slabbed, I have a friend of mine who has PCGS, NGC, ANACS and ICG slabbed rainbow toned Morgans, all cracked from the same roll, less than a year ago. All of these are "Monster Toned" rainbow coins.

All came out of the rolls untoned, he toned them all within 6 months, and they all ended up in slabs. Before I get jumped on, he did this to prove a point and does not intend on reselling them.

This is one of the reasons that I am not into toned coins.

 

Uh, no. That would be unethical...

If so, there are none. Excepting if they're really bad at it (then you'll know it when you see it).

 

dirty coins.

Is it safe/wise to do your own dipping?

Are there experts to consult on rather to "dip" or "not to dip?"

What is one of the favorite products out there? Are there universal dipping solutions, or do 90% do better in one, and ASE in another.?

I have some cents that are I can hardly read the dates. It an effort of almost using Braille :mouth:.

Too much grim can get in the way. How do you all feel about warm tap water and dish soap?

I hope this is not too dump of a question.

 

If you don't know what you are doing, then.....YES...it is not wise to dip. Although I am not a professional, I do play one on TV and recommend that you do not dip your coins unless you are 100% sure you know what you are doing. I have ruined too many coins this way. You should have seen my poor IHC collection......really bad shape.

 

I have heard that the old fat NGC slabs without the break between the label and the coin can have a toning effect on the coin within the slab.

And I have conducted the experiment on old PCGS rattlers and it is rather easy to get some basic toning on them. The toning wasnt wild rainbows but rather blueish/auburn rim toning... Nothing that I would think would add any real value to the coins though.

 

People write books for profit and really have no or little real knowledge as to what is real and what isn't. Some take little information and blow it up for sensationalism so thier book will sell. If you were around at the time of the famous Kinzie reports, you would understand how little truth there is to many things in print. Not saying his information is wrong, just possibly not conclusive or maybe not even actually done but hypothesized. As already noted nothing is really air tight or most things anyway. Naturally our government and other organizations spend millions on experiments with as much air tight facilities as possible. But for a piece of plastic to hold a coin, not likely. Copper is horrible under any situations for reacting with the invironment. Almost anywhere on Earth Sulfur Rich coal is burned and the Sulfur is emitted as SO or SO2 into the air. Volcanos also emit Sulfur gassous compounds into the air. Although minor for the amount of air on Earth, it does find and attack Copper. Slower in some areas than others but not many TPGS holders are completely safe.