To clean ( conserve) or not to clean your coins.

I will post a thread that seems to be the hot topic on this site. Is cleaning or conserving a coin the right thing to do to any coin. I do not believe you should clean any coins. And yes some will say that they have to acetone their coin to save them and that is fine with me as long as they don't try to sell them at a later date as original never been cleaned coins. A few dealers will do this often and everyone that buys these coins complains when they send the coin in to be graded and find out the coin they bought from that dealer was dipped or conserved. I believe most coins are dipped so someone can sell them for a higher price. And I know that most Morgans have been dipped, even in some slabs, but that makes finding a original Morgan that much nicer. Lets face it 100 year old coins and older are not blast white. The new term used at a lot of shows for original coins is crusty not snow white. And I have a problem with anyone telling someone else to clean their coins when you do not know if they have the experience to clean them the proper way. I just looked at a complete set of Lincolns, 1909-s VDB was fine, 1914-D was a vg and the 1922 plain was great except the owner of these coins was told by someone to clean them up so he soaked them over night in ketchup and than use a SOS to touch them up. BIG mistake! This is the problem with free advice, the person giving the advice has nothing to lose. I am not a big fan of NGC or NCS but if you must clean or conserve your coins LET THEM DO IT.:devil:

 

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Just want to point out there is a difference between 'cleaning' a coin and conserving a coin. When most people 'clean' a coin they are intentionally altering the original surface in a way that destroys the patina but makes it shiny and 'new'. When you conserve a coin, the goal is to remove damaging material from the surface of the coin with as little impact to the original patina as possible.

 

Its a fine line between the two, but when I am buying a coin I would like to know if its been cleaned or conserved in anyway as I feel it lowers the coins value. I have been doing coin shows for over 40 years and this same topic has always been a hot topic.

 

Cleaning is only advisable when it is done improperly or harshly. In fact, some grading companies will will put a special notation on the coins holder.

 

No offense, but this has been done...........................many....................many...................times before.

 

I think you mean not advisable?

 

". . . I just looked at a complete set of Lincolns, 1909-s VDB was fine, 1914-D was a vg and the 1922 plain was great except the owner of these coins was told by someone to clean them up so he soaked them over night in ketchup and than use a SOS to touch them up. BIG mistake! . . . "

Unbelievably brain dead decision.

At the last Whitman show I bought a beautiful seventy y/o Walking Liberty (cleaned) that I was going to send to the coin ring guy (http://www.thecoinsmith.net/Gallery.html) to be made into a WL ring. I like the cleaned coin so much I'm going to keep it and find another for the WL ring.
I've known this dealer for several years. he showed me a couple graded slabbed coins that had been cleaned. I wonder how many cleaned coins are out there masquerading as uncleaned coins?

 

It's very common, and usually recommended, to clean ancients. So yes, some coins should be cleaned.

 

This has been discussed multitudes on this forum and others....obviously. The bottomline is there is no yes or no answer. Every coin is different, every problem is different and every approach is different. Most people should NEVER attempt to do anything to their coins. More coins are ruined by ignorant collectors than are saved. Conservation is a scientific, calculated approach that requires experience and knowledge to properly perform. The consequences of a mistake are unrepairable.

 

-he soaked them over night in ketchup and than use a SOS to touch them up.-

I forgot to ask what was the ketchup supposed to do? Aren't tomatoes acidic?

 

Yeah, the acid is what "cleans" the coin, I believe. Other acidic stuff does about the same thing, like lemon juice, etc.

 

Yes, all veg and fruit juices are acidic. NEVER use anything acidic on copper. Even the slightest amount of acidity will permanently damage the surfaces.

 

I disagree here, there is not a fine line being using xylol and a q-tip to remove built up dirt/wax/crud on the devices of cents vs. soaking them in an acid and using a SOS pad on them. People that don't know what they are doing should not touch coins, on the other hand simply removing dirt/crud from coins with an organic solvent which can not react with the patina on an old coin is not rocket science.

If you are talking about mint state coins then fine, leave them alone. But for almost any circulated copper, and someone mentioned ancients, it's almost always advisable to clean debris from the devices. If you don't the coin will continue to deteriorate and corrode where grim is present.

The next time I get a coin with dirt/wax built up I will do a little photo tutorial on how to clean them up without doing damage to the surface of the coin. I did one today but did not think to post pictures. Last point, keep in mind the termonology on the grading companies is 'Harshly cleaned' not just cleaned. There is a huge difference.

 

I have been dipping coins since my teens. As a dealer, dipping is an ordinary, necessary part of the coin business and if done properly can enhance eye appeal of coins needing a dip (PVC damage, unattractive toning).

Silver coins reacting with the atmosphere over a long period of time will eventually develop dark toning. This is a fact so the older a coin is the more likely it has been dipped at some point in time. Beware of toned "stickered" coins especially those with blackspots. I have seen a number of these in the marketplace. To those of us who can grade coins, these peices are average quality at best. Remember, the sticker is merely an opinion and in no way a gurarantee an informed buyer is going to find the coin desireable enough to pay a premium.

 

Indeed. I know several dealers that do this. A couple of them use mineral oil (i.e. Coin Care) on all of their copper.

 

Just curious here, I don't have strong feelings one way or t'other but what about detector finds? It seems to me that they pretty much have to be cleaned.

 

Thad (and others),

The question I've never seen an answer to is this:

Where is a respected explanation of how to properly conserve a coin? Is there a book, or online resource that explains the currently accepted process?

NCS won't do that...because that would kill their business.

TPG won't do it either...because they want no association with the evil twin of Conservation, Doctoring.

You might remember a post I made a while back about an 1866 IHC...the thread stopped as soon as I asked this question. Until it's answered, I feel like anything said is just one person's opinion against another's (and I don't say that in an accusatory manner at all, btw.) Opinions change. Some are respected more than others. Some are originally ridiculed and later found to be correct. But the reason this keeps popping up is because it hasn't been answered sufficiently yet...

 

Right on the money stldanceartist. And the other point I was trying to make that some people on this site give advice on how to clean coins or conserve coins with out knowing how much experience the person reading the tread has or how experience the person giving the advice is. Free advice is cheap as long as you don't have to stand behind the advice you give.

 

There is a generally accepted way to conserve coins by people who collect early American copper. There are numerous places it's published in the EAC literature, and Bob Grellman's book has instructions as well. The problem people have is we don't know what the TPG will accept or not, so there is not an accepted method.

For me, I do not care in the least what a TPG says about a coins grade or condition as I think they are unreliable. What I do know, from first hand experience, is using xylol to clean off grime and dirt from early copper does not have any impact on the surface integrity of the coin. I have coins in my collection which were treated this way 30+ years ago and show no adverse effects from it. I also know that leaving the dirt/grime on the coins will cause them to slowly deteriorate. So my choice is use xylol to remove harmful substances from the surface of a coin while not reacting with the original surface/patina, or I can leave them alone and in 30+ years they will corrode.

I would advise you to get some xylol and take an old dirty wheat penny or indian head and experiment with it yourself. I am certain if you do this you can convince yourself that it is effective at removing dirt/grime without affecting the actual surface of the coin.

Last thing I will say, you can go on ebay and see countless examples of early large cents from the 1800s that are bright red and shiny from harsh cleaning. When people say you should not clean a coin this is what I think. Be very weary of changing the surface condition of a coin, as in don't take a dull penny and try to shine it up. People use to do this to coins all the time, they 'cleaned' them up. This is a far cry from gentle removing built up dirt/dust/grime while leaving the original patina in tact.

 

To the best of my knowledge, there are only tidbits of infomation here and there and in books on conservation. If i ever get my book done, it could be one of the better references published....but I just haven't had time to work on it (I was laid-off when I started it).

The problem is that there's no single process or method that can safely be specified. Consider coins can range from detector finds, to encusted ancients to simple surface corrosion to a spot of grease. Coins are like people, they vary greatly and the treatments for problem coins vary greatly. Each conservation project must be performed on an ad hoc basis.

As far as generalizations, all I can offer is the standard solvent polarity ladder method. It is safe (given pure reagents) and accepted by numismatists as gentle. Soak coins in the following solvents, in this order:

1) Distilled or deionized water
2) Acetone
3) Xylene

Going beyond those three solvents requires the understanding that the surfaces may be damaged or altered by anything you might use. There's a million different things collectors recommend from olive oil to lemon juice and each has it's problems. Spend some time searching this forum and the internet and you'll find gobs of information.....however, most of it is bad. LOL There's a reason places like NCS exist. Most conservation projects should be left to the professionals and very experienced as the end-results by the amateur are seldom pleasing.