Time Riddle

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by Jochen1, Nov 17, 2021.

  1. Jochen1

    Jochen1 Well-Known Member

    Dear friends of antiquity!

    Original.jpg

    This strange date I discovered above a door in a small chapel a few years ago. After a long research, I found the solution. Now I would like to present the riddle to you, so as not to deprive you of this joy of discovery. So: What do these numbers mean?
    Transscription_4.jpg
    To simplify matters, I have presented them again as they would be written today.

    Good luck with the guessing
    Jochen
     
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  3. JayAg47

    JayAg47 Well-Known Member

    Anno Domini 1450- 13
    That's what all I could decipher o_O
     
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  4. Inspector43

    Inspector43 More than 75 Years Active Collecting Supporter

  5. Treashunt

    Treashunt The Other Frank

    never mind
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2021
  6. pprp

    pprp Well-Known Member

    CCCCL is not a valid roman number, maybe the engraver was drunk :happy:
     
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  7. GinoLR

    GinoLR Well-Known Member

    ano dni m & ccccc l x iii : an(n)o d(omi)ni M et CCCCCLXIII : In the year of the Lord 1563.

    It is 1563. Did you identify the coat of arms?
     
  8. FitzNigel

    FitzNigel Medievalist

    Wild guess - 1450, 13th indiction (although I don’t know if indications were still used at this time)
     
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  9. John Wright

    John Wright Well-Known Member

    Since we're a COIN group, we can add a comparable early-dated coin. Puzzle THIS one out. 26b-Germany 1419.jpg
     
  10. @Jochen1

    In your first iteration of this, you entered; CCCCL, not CCCCCL, and this is why we responded 1463 rather than 1563.
     
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  11. John Wright

    John Wright Well-Known Member

    ... and CCCC is *TOTALLY* valid. the 'prefix' to
    The 'prefix' to Roman numerals (IV instead of IIII or XL instead of XXXX) is a more modern 'Post-Roman' development. The original (non-prefix) form was still in common use well into the 1500's.
     
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  12. GinoLR

    GinoLR Well-Known Member

    I can read
    SES:KAROL:MA G:IPERATO', thus I suppose it is Charlemagne facing holding a model cathedral and a globus cruciger, above a coat of arms (an eagle) which used to be the emblem of the Roman Empire, became the emblem of Charlemagne (as emperor of Occident), then the emblem of the Holy Roman Empire, and is now the emblem of the Federal Republic of Germany.
    +MONETA:VRB'.AQVS' and + ANNO:DOMINI:MILESIMO:CCCC:XIX : Coin of the city of Aachen (Aix la Chapelle), in the year of the Lord 1419.

    (edit : I typed : followed by D, w/o space, and I got that green smiley!)

    The only thing I do not understand is SES... If it was SCS it would be Sanctus, saint (Charlemagne is a saint, after all...), but the E seems very clear...

    => city-coin of Aachen, 1419.
    OK?
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2021
  13. GinoLR

    GinoLR Well-Known Member

    Is it in Alsace? The city of Dambach and the Schoeneck family have the same coat of arms.
     
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  14. kazuma78

    kazuma78 Supporter! Supporter

    Am I the only one that read that as Tom Riddle on first glance? I thought you guys were going to get into discussing Harry Potter lol
     
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  15. Jochen1

    Jochen1 Well-Known Member

    @FitzNigel is right, it's the indiction number!

    Resolution:
    The inscription is for the year 1450, and XIII = 13 is the so-called year of indiction. 1450 is the 13th year in the 97th indiction cycle.

    Explanation:
    The indiction is a 15-year cycle that was finally established in 537 AD by Emperor Justinian I, presumably for reasons of fiscal and financial accounting. Originally, Diocletian had established a five-year cycle, but by 312, under Constantine I, the 15-year rhythm had been adopted. The years are numbered as the 1st indiction, 2nd indiction, 3rd indiction and so on until the 15th indiction, whereupon it starts all over again in the next cycle. So the fifteenth indication is followed by the first again. For each year of indication, the Roman number was determined.
    There are different types of indictions, which differ in the beginning of the 1st year:

    (1) The indictio Graeca (or constantinopolitana) begins on 1 September and was common above all in the Byzantine Empire (hence the Orthodox church year also begins on 1 September to this day), Sicily and the papal chancery, as well as under Frederick II and Henry VII.

    (2) The indictio Bedana (caesarea, constantina) begins on 24 September and was exclusively common in England and in France as well as Italy.

    (3) The indictio Romana (pontificia) begins its year on 25 December or 1 January (New Year's indiction) and was most common in the late Middle Ages; in Germany it was predominant from the 13th century onwards.

    The indiction was common throughout the Occident, except in Spain, for calendar calculations to determine the Julian date; for a long time it served as a substitute for a fixed year count; the German Imperial Chamber Court used the indiction until its dissolution in 1806.

    Closely related to the term indiction is the indiction year. It is one of the most common year designations of the Middle Ages. It is based on a 15-year cycle beginning in 3 BC. Thus, according to our calendar today, a year is an indiction year by adding 3 to the year and then dividing by 15.

    Back to our example: We obviously have here the year MCCCCL = 1450. Adding 3 gives us 1453. Dividing by the cycle length of 15 gives 96 remainder 13. The year 1450 is therefore the 13th year in the 97th induction cycle. This 13 was added to the year with a vertical line (or an I?). The index number belonged to the so-called eschatokoll (from Greek eschaton 'the utmost' last'), the final record of a classical medieval deed. It is therefore a kind of control number, as we find today on credit cards, for example, where a digit is added to the card number to make the number even. So a reading error or fraud can be detected automatically.

    I think that this was an interesting discovery after all, which I made in the small village church of Unterbrändi near Freudenstadt in the Black Forest.

    Best regards
    Jochen
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2021
  16. John Wright

    John Wright Well-Known Member

    BRAVO!
     
  17. FitzNigel

    FitzNigel Medievalist

    It’s like all that education I worked for occasionally pays off. Thanks for the riddle @Jochen1. I’ve never been too good at calculating indictions, so thanks for the run-through
     
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