Tiberius Tribute Penny

(I'm pasting this same intro into all my first posts to level set. Thanks for your patience)
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Hello all,


I'm new here. Please be kind

So I recently found out about auctions for ancient coins and artifacts (I already own all of the items I post at the price written). I've mostly just been buying things that feel interesting or give me a good feeling. I have always loved archeology and history, and also been a minor coin collector since childhood.

I'm not really collecting as an investment, more as a form of time travel. I just love touching and holding these objects and imagining who may have held it when it was newer. Having some kind of historical context to these objects is what I am mostly after.

Also, I am strongly interested in attempting to restore everything to as close to what it looked like when it was new(er). I don't want to destroy anything, but I also do want to be "aggressive" in the restoration efforts in an attempt to do so.

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So with this (potentially Tiberius) coin ($210) I'm looking for

1. Any info you all might think about it.
a. Is the paper description correct?
b. Can someone help to translate all those abbreviations and meanings on the paper?
c. The auction description said "Ancient Tiberius Caesar 14-37 AD"
d. Guessing this is silver metal?
e. Why is this one called a Tribute Penny when the others are just coins?
2. Best advice to attempt to restore it.
a. Can I shine this up somehow and restore the original color?


Thank you for reading and I really do appreciate your time and look forward to learning more and being part of your community.

All the best,
JJ Walker

 

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Coin is fine and the tag in the photo is correct.

 

I'm going to echo what I said on your other thread and recommend not cleaning this coin. It's already been cleaned and whoever previously cleaned it was smart to stop when they did because of the porosity that has revealed itself, particularly on the reverse. By the time you get the coin shinier, you're likely to reveal more porosity and the coin is honestly quite nice as it is. You'd likely remove most of the value by further cleaning it as well.

 

Please don't

Q

 

Yikes ok. That makes a lot of sense. I'll do some more searching to decipher what all those abbreviations on the paper are.

This is a silver coin that was cleaned as far as it could I guess.

Any idea why this is called a Tribute Penny rather than get a Tiberius coin?

 

https://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=807
The story of this coin type tends to make the Christian church sermon list once a year. Whether this is the type shown to Christ as reported in Matthew 22:20 is quite another discussion but it has been called 'Tribute Penny' for over a century. The coin tends to sell for more than it would otherwise since many Christian pastors want one even if it is their only coin.

 

Wow that's really interesting! I'm going to read about that. I am sure there is much debate which would have been the one referred to. I mean coins circulate longer than just the year they are produced, and which size, metal, etc. I guess it could be narrowed down, but seems like lots of grains of salt need to be taken with this leap.

 

That's a good price for a genuine tribute penny in that condition, assuming that it is legit. The style looks good, but I'd want to know the weight of the coin before I bought it to make sure it's not a fourrée.

A fourrée is an ancient counterfeit coin meant to pass as the real thing. It has a bronze or copper core that is covered by a thin layer of silver. Since bronze and copper are less dense than silver, a fourrée will weight a little less than a legitimate denarius.

 

My notes help explain the tribute penny reference. In my opinion, it’s more a matter of marketing a fairly common denarius to sell it for a premium. But I guess that’s how supply and demand works.

 

Yes, but weights of genuine coins vary and certain burial conditions leech out some weight so yo need to interpret weight results carefully. Fourrees become obvious with core exposure showing after a little wear.


The original thought of this being the type used for the Tribute Penny was based on the fact that Tiberius only used a couple types during his long reign and this one was by far the most common. If the story actually happened in 30 AD, it had been 15 years since this coin was begun and that is a lot of denarii. Opponents to this selection point to the lack of hoards in Jerusalem of these coins and prefer a number of other coins both Roman and Provincial. There is even one of the Gospels that did not make the final cut when the New Testament was codified that specifies the coin was gold. The Bible is full of metaphorical stories that illustrate a teaching that not all Christians insist on being literally factual so they believe that the question of what coin is meaningless since the story was fabricated to illustrate the point being made not to record the whole truth. For our purposes, the fact is that this particular coin is known to collectors and New Testament readers over the years as 'the' Tribute Penny and quite a few of them are willing to pay more for one than just any other denarius. People enjoy the thought that they may be holding the coin that Jesus held even though the scripture says it as shown to him rather than handed over. As told in the Scriptures, Jesus was not a user of cash money. The chances that the fingerprints on any given coin are His make a million to one look like a sure thing. My fourree above weighs 3.0g. With the amount of wear and peeling it shows, I'd call that a heavy one. I have two solid TP's which weigh 3.5g and 3.0g respectively. The type has several variations (style of chair legs for example) and weigh variance is to be expected. Most mints were less concerned with having each coin be exactly the same weight than they were of producing a specified number of coin from a pound of metal. Weight certainly is an important feature in numismatics BUT it is one to interpret rather than worship.

 

King James version...


16And they sent out unto him their disciples with the Herodians, saying, Master, we know that thou art true, and teachest the way of God in truth, neither carest thou for any man: for thou regardest not the person of men. 17Tell us therefore, What thinkest thou? Is it lawful to give tribute unto Caesar, or not? 18But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye me, ye hypocrites? 19Shew me the tribute money. And they brought unto him a penny. 20And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription? 21They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's. 22When they had heard these words, they marvelled, and left him, and went their way.

 

Just as a point of interest and comparison, below is the original KJV version of these verses from Matthew 22 before it was updated and re-updated:



But more on point in regards to the question of the "Tribute Penny" (whatever coin it may have been), I agree 100% with the view already expressed above by others that the term "Tribute Penny" is used more as a sales tactic than a point of fact. (Same is true with "Widow's Mites" and "Coins of the Magi".) After all, there are several possibilities for what coin type it may have been, and in truth we do not have sufficient information today to ever know.

And lest this thread lead further into re-discussions on the subject, please see the many other CoinTalk threads about this, most of which are referenced here:
https://www.cointalk.com/threads/the-tribute-penny.379663/#post-7480522

 

That's very nice, @JJ Walker! It has lovely toning and you let it stay that way.

One of my favorite things about my tribute penny is its toning.


Tiberius, AD 14-37.
Roman AR Denarius, 3.87 g, 18.5 mm, 5 h.
Lugdunum, AD 16-37.
Obv: TI CAESAR DIVI AVG F AVGVSTVS, laureate head, right.
Rev: PONTIF MAXIM, Female figure seated right, holding long olive branch and inverted spear; legs of chair ornate, triple line below.
Refs: RIC 28; BMCRE 42-44; RSC 16b; RCV 1763 var.

 

1. This is a very nice example of the type. It is fairly well centered, with complete legends, sharp details, with minor wear/light strike on the lower reverse, a few minor scratches, and pleasant toning.

a. The ticket is mostly correct. (Heading) 'Caesar' is the correct spelling (not 'Ceasar').

b. The abbreviations are:

--Obverse--
TI - (TIBERIVS) -- The emperor's praenomen(first name).
CAESAR -- The emperor's adopted cognomen(last name).
DIVI AVG F - (DIVVS AVGVSTI FILIVS) -- Translates to 'Son of Divine Augustus'.
AVGVSTVS -- The emperor's adopted title.

--Reverse--
R -- There is no R on the coin. Perhaps representing 'Reverse'(?)
PONTIF MAXIM - (PONTIFEX MAXIMVS) -- Translates to 'Greatest Priest'. This is a title that declared the emperor as the 'High Priest' of the Roman religion. The pope continues to use this title as the head of the Catholic religion.

The information at the bottom of the ticket are published catalogued numbered references to the type(and variances of).

Sear (David R Sear) -- Numismatist and author of "Roman Coins And Their Values".
Crawford (Michael Crawford) -- Numismatist and author noted for cataloguing coins from the Roman Republic.
R.I.C. (Roman Imperial Coinage) -- British Catalogue of Roman Imperial Coinage - Various Authors.
B.M.C. (British Museum Catalogue) -- British Museum Catalogue of Coins - Various Authors.

c. (14-37 AD) was the duration of Tiberius' reign as emperor.

d. Yes, the denarius is silver - denoted by 'AR'(Argentum) on ticket.

e. 'Tribute Penny' is a nickname assigned due to the belief that this type is referenced in the New Testament (MARK 12:14-17).


2. Advice: Don't try to "restore" it.

a. Yes, there are many ways one can "shine" it up. However, most experienced collectors prefer their coins to look their age. The majority of ancient coins have been cleaned to varying levels at one point in the existence since their having been dug out of the ground. Many longtime collectors prefer natural toning (sometimes referred to as 'cabinet' or 'old collection' toning) on ancient silver coins. Often, such toning may enhance and highlight the devices of a coin.

 

You have a very attractive Tiberius denarius and you got it at a great price. Please, please, don't "shine it up".
Most collectors actively search for attractivly toned coins.

 

Should I "shine up" that one as well ?



Just kidding of course
Q

 

It has not been explicitly stated in this thread (I don't think), but it's worth pointing out that the original Greek of Matthew states that the Tribute money is a denarius.

Whether this is simply used as a catch all term for coinage in general, or whether this specificity is intended, I am not sure.

The historical reality of the event is so uncertain that it probably doesn't make sense to debate it.

 

I figured as much. I'm ok with that. I'm not really doing these as an investment. I guess maybe when I die my daughter may sell them, but that's her problem

That's what I would have guessed as well. TBH I am actually interested in Fourrees since it tells a very different story and I'm here for the stories.

Wow that is incredible insight. It makes a lot of sense.

Thank you! I guess I will leave it as is.

Thank you for translating all that info for me as well as the advice. I can see that perspective. I just see these photos etc of silver coins put into lemon juice and look amazing. But I do worry about damage so I will leave it.

Thank you

I agree with you. TBH I think that it was telling a story to convey a concept rather than a word for word documentary of this interaction.

 

Welcome to the Ancients Forum, @JJ Walker ! I’ve been following your posts and I admire your zeal !