The Big Four

I just looked all over the forum, and I can't find it now, but someone had mentioned the "Big Four" in regards to third party grading companies. I know one is PCGS and one is NGC and one is probably ANACS, but what is the fourth?

 

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ICG of course.

 

Yep...it is ICG. Personally, I love their slabs with the Intercept Shield protection. No other grading service can match this protection.

As for their grading, I am pleased with this company as well as some of their coins I have submitted, purchased, and sold. Check out the grew sheet indicators:

http://www.greysheet.com/cdn/cdnccmi.asp

Also, I see their slabs auctioned at Heritage along with PCGS, NGC and ANACS. Another good sign.

 

Soooooooo, what would you think of a coin that was slabbed by ICG as a PR70?

 

probably around a pr65 in pcds standards

 

What are "pcds" standards?

 

true... although from the experience I have thus far it seems if you were to take the same coin that any third party graded as pr70 and give to pcgs they would drop the grade to an instant 69 then start nit picking about stuff they imagine and end it up at around 65+ lol... my comment was more of a indirect way of saying pcgs is too stricked sorry if i confuzzled you with the pcds thing.. i was typing too fast i guess

 

I know that many would argue that it is totally impossible for a coin to achieve a 70 rating. Looking under a scope, you are bound to find something irregular. The question is how much scope power should be used when examining coins? 3X, 5X, 10X , 20X, etc.?? I am sure that as you head up with higher magnifications, you can split "atoms" if you choose to.

But as I stated before, I have bought, sold and submitted coins to ICG and have had a good experience. As for PCGS standards, the same questions/issues are brought up with any grading service...what are their standards? Is the grader having a good day or bad day when he/she reviews your coins? Is a "slight" blemish mean MS66 or MS65?, and on and on and on!

We can discuss this to kingdom come, but I believe the numismatic industry will agree that the top 4 are PCGS, NGC, ICG and ANACS.

 

It is my term; I coined it. It is my experience as an observer that PCGS, NGC, ANACS, and ICG are about equally competent and respected.

Some tyros in this hobby go along with multiple "tiers" of acceptability, based on their limited experience with "sight unseen" sales, such as Teletrade or Coin Dealers Network, or Certified Coin Exchange. However, if you read the details of their posts (for instance on rec.collecting.coins) you will find that they take the coin to ANACS for a free opinion and then submit it to NGC or PCGS for the slab. If ANACS is not a "top tier" company, why ask them for their opinion?

I happen to know the people from ICG. James Taylor was the Education Director at the ANA. J. P. Martin is famous for his videos, lectures, and other work as the ANA Authenticator before ANAAB was closed.

Michael

 

Well, I don't have much faith in ICG when it comes to ultra-graded moderns. ANACS and PCGS are the toughest on those, with NGC being a little looser and ICG being considerably looser.

For other coins, though, I think ICG is right up there on par with the others.

 

Allow me to post a few tangential observations:

There is way too much talk about "bottom feeders" and "fourth tier" companies. I have written in defense of Alan Hager who has been the target of a lot of abuse from these tyros and their paradigmatic "consumer advocates" who run for ANA Board slots. Alan Hager's marketing strategies and tactics might not instill you with a sense of confidence that you will get one over on him, but rather that he will have gotten one over on you. Even so, the fact is that people in the hobby with a lifetime of professional achievement admit that Alan Hager knows his coins. If you are known to him as a professional of merit and you ask him how the other companies will grade a coin, he will hit the nail on the head for you.

There are many reasons why PCGS achieved the perception of being the preferred service. One of the reaons is that when Rick Montgomery was at PCGS, he adhered to a policy of correcting their mistakes. This actually meant that on the ANA bourse floor, a dealer known for his judgment could approach Montgomery with a coin and whine, "Aww, Rick, look at this. How can I get 4 money for it? It's a mess and you know it." And Montgomery would have the coin reslabbed MS-63 or whatever. That carried a lot of weight with dealers, especially as they do business on the telephone with each other. They could count on PCGS's idea of a grade meeting everyone else's expectations. (Rick Montgomery is now at NGC, though he perhaps maintains some position as a stockholder with Collector's Universe, parent of PCGS.)

That said, the fact remains that these grading companies see thousands of coins at a time. Their graders are employees who come and go. If you look at enough slabs, you will see perhaps obvious differences between the same grade for the same coin. It is unavoidable. That is one of the reasons that we say, "Buy the coin, not the holder."

One series that I happen to know from some experience and reading is the Mercury Dime. I shook my head at four PCGS slabbed MS-66 and MS-67 from 1942, 43, and 44. If this one is, then that one cannot be...

Similarly, if you go to any ANA convention, you can find nice coins graded dead right center on by any or all of the services, top tier or twelfth. Whether you can sell the coin at the grade over the telephone to a dealer is a totally different question.

 

Sooooooo, what do you think the odds are of a recently minted coin (1990-present) being properly graded as a PR70 by:
PCGS
NGC
ANACS
ICG

 

Sure, with the coin in hand, it's much easier to *completely* buy the coin and not the holder. Even the "leaders" like PCGS botch it once a while, and even the lesser-esteemed TPGs get it right sometimes. I'd just as soon buy a "Fred's Grading Service" MS-65 as a PCGS MS-65 if the coins looked roughly identical, and I actually could *examine* the coin in person.

But when you don't have the coin in hand, it's harder to trust the opinion of the so-called "lower tier" slabbers. And that's why, sight unseen (or with only a picture to guide you), the more respected TPGs with a reputation for being more conservative will get higher offers.

I think ANACS and perhaps PCGS would be closest. ANACS is very tough on moderns. I think an NGC 70 would sometimes be a PCGS 68 or 69, and an ICG 70 may not be more than a 65 to 67 in some cases.

But for something like an MS-63 classic coin, or for circulated stuff, I don't think there's much difference. It's mostly in grades above (about) MS-64/65 when you start seeing some discernible average-case differences in standards.

 

How many of the coins shown on the midnight coin sales program,, im sure you all know which Im refering to ? do you guys really think make the grade that NGC gives them ? I mean these guys have thousands of 69 and 70 coins !!!

do you think volume plays a part in such things ?

I have seen some of the coins bought from that television extravaganza ,,,, some that graded MS-69 with four to five dings on the obverse field and relief,,, now I dont know about you guys but 1 ding on the field or the relief ,I believe( In my opinion )would make it hard for a coin to grade as a 65 let alone a 69,,,


Just asking !!!

 

Hey Y'all
I think we could talk about this topic for ever and would never think one of us was right or the other one was right.
A few weeks ago I saw a PF-70 Half dollar slabbed by PCGS I passed by it like it was fire--I didn't even hold it not even look at it--Because I don't think there is such a thing as PF-70 or MS-70 there will always be some type of mark or line or die defect or something.

Yes I like graded coins and I buy slabs but not for the slab but the coin in the slab.

If I made a list it would be
NGC
PCGS
ICG
ANACS

But I don't think we will even agree on that or any other list that we might see.

You see, everyone grades different-I might say its a VG and you might say AG and PCGS might say G.
Grading is a hobby in itself that we would all like to conquer but I don't think anybody ever will.

So buy the coin not the slab--and if you are buying a coin you think is graded high and not right then maybe you shouln't buy it...I mean, why buy it if you think your getting ripped.

I know this has been said before but I think we need to agree to disagree.

Speedy
WINS#398

 

WOW! This whole grading/slabbing thing is fascinating to observe. I have never been a big proponent of Grading services. I understand the "need" for them for investors who have no knowledge of coins and do not want to develop any. They want a "trusted impartial" opinion on the quality of the item they want to purchase. Grading services DO fill a portion of that need.

The services exist to make a profit and therefore are always suspect on things like the quantity of MS70s they slab. I believe that 99.9% of the people involved in these services are earnest and sincere in their efforts to do an outstanding job. GRADING is not a science. It is an ART.

At the same time there are always people who will make a profit by being the grading service "naysayers". Well gosh this is life.

I firmly believe that grading is valuable for resale, but the final determinant of quality is the purchaser. Know your coins. Buy what you know- slab or no slab.

Please always remember that while numismatics is fun for most of us, for some it is only a means to earn a living.