Hello again fellow coin enthusiasts. I recently purchased this BEAUTY of a Syrian Tetradrachm. Now I have only ever seen ONE of this bust type for sale on ebay ever...... and it was a BIN of like 200 or 300 USD, I forget..... So my question is..... who is this a Tetradrachm of? Is it a young portrait of Caracalla? or a less than common portrait of Elagabalus (who's portrait is usually just of his head on most of his Syrian Tetradrachmai) ? Since I know that both Elagabalus and Caracalla used the same title of 'M AURELIUS ANTONINUS' in Greek on the obverse of their Tets. Also, can anyone tell the date... I know the reverse has decent ammount of wear on the lettering. In conclusion, I LOVE this coin!!! Whomever may have struck it. The portrait is just breathtaking and wonderful, check out the three dots at the tip of each laurel leaf on his Laureate crown..... I just love those, and I like other Tetradrachm coins that have the three dots at the tip of the Laureate crown, I have some of Philip II and other emperors with the same dots at the tip of the laurel leaves, I find it amusing and interesting. But I just cannot speak enough about how much I like this coin and about how beautiful and attractive I find it, but I am just looking for the correct info, and as much of it as possible, to write on the envelope for this coin, envelopes that I use to keep my coins in. *Notes: Sadly for now I only have the seller pic, but will work on getting some new ones as soon as possible, could take a little bit though.... I still think the seller photo shos pretty good detail.... enough for an ID at least. Any help or info is appreciated.... As I said I have only ever seen this type of tet with this exact same obv portrait ONCE in my life, and that person had it labelled as being a 'Tetradrachm of Elagabalus'.
I thought that the rule of thumb was when they were that young they were Caracalla. Elagabalus was a teenager portrayal. I think I am simply regurgitating what I read from Doug's website, though, so I would like to hear from the horse's mouth, (so to speak )
It sure looked a bit young for Elagabalus but the coin is a dead ringer for coin 42 plate IV #10 in Bellenger, The Syrian Tetradrachms of Caracalla and Macrinus where it is given to Elagabalus. He comments that coins of Elagabalus have a capital B following Upato on the reverse dating the coin to 219 AD. After explaining a bit, he comments that Elagabalus is outside the area of his study but the coin still made the plates as did several from before and after the stated range. The coin is said to be available in 'large number' with the later (older) portraits being more scarce. Bellinger also offers the opinion that they did not bother to change the reverse date for the final issues that followed 219 and there are no Elagabalus from Antioch with higher numbers than b=2. Edit: I reread Bellinger and see that it was a gamma or delta used on the Caracalla but no betas because the young issues used Septimius' consul numbers rather than Caracalla's. That would mean that the first tetradrachms of Antioch for Caracalla could be earlier than the date on them but Antioch did not get rights to coin back after the mistake of supporting Niger until 202 AD which would mean there could be no B issues for Caracalla or Septimius. That would explain his attributing the coin to Elagabalus. However, I could see someone arguing that the B coins could be the very first issue of Caracalla and dated in his own consulship series so I'd not bet the farm on the Elagabalus ID either. It is certainly safest to give the coin to Elagabalus and quote Bellinger 42. When I first read this question, I forgot I owned Bellinger. It was in a box in my attic and not a book I have looked at much since I got it 20+ years ago. It is a nice book if you collect these coins but I only have a couple that are in it and have no idea why I bought it.
Great info... doug, even though your reference says it is 'available in great number' I have only ever seen one example with this specific bust type for sale, with the three dots above the tips of the laureate crown as well as the elaborate drapery and very young-looking portrait, I truly love the obv, and the rev of this coin, and I bought it for that reason alone for my personal collection, not as an 'investment' or something to sell for more money in the future, I expect this coin will be in my collection for my lifetime, and I managed to aqure it for a price that would be considered 'VERY inexpensive for any tetradrachm of the time' inexpensive even for a poor condition of the much more common and very widely available Elagabalus Antioch Tets, the ones with just his head on the obv which are all over eBay and coin shops, or a low grade common-bust type Philip I or II tet. I also love the good strike and roundness of this particular tet.... I like the coin it alot, and have loved the bust type ever since I saw that one, the only one I ever saw for sale(aside from this one), for sale years ago, I thought 'wow I reeally like that bust, I want a tet JUST like that' but the one I saw back then was almost entirely bronze looking, the billon looked so low grade, or just corroded/uncleaned, not sure, but the guy was asking like 200 or 300 USD, way too much, and it wasn't even as nice as this one. I wish I had saved a pic..... it was on ebay. ---------------- dougsmit : Thanks for shedding some light on this coin for me, I much appreciate it, you seem to have a bit of info on just about everything, and more often than not you are the one answering my questions heh, Thank you sir..... medoraman too is very helpful, he is smart people, as are many of the others on here who have helped me with my questions on Ancient and World coins. I thank you all for your time and help. ---------------- When I get a chance I will take some pics of my own (the one shown is the seller pic, kinda small) and post them in this thread, so keep an eye out if you want to see some better pics, but it may be a few weeks before I get a chance. ~~~~~ ~~~ ~
I do look forward to seeing them, and looking up this coin too. I also have trouble telling Caracalla from Elagabalus, (as everyone here can tell now. )
I so very much recommend only buying coins that you expect to keep for the long haul. You will make enough mistakes as hard as you might try not to but when you buy a coin because you think you should, the level of fun is greatly diminished. If you buy coins for fun, you still might make a profit on them but only if you sell them and the coins I have that would sell for a profit are rarely the ones I want to part with.
Nice one Randy, I like it too,(I always liked and was interested in the three large dots to the right, slightly below the cornucopia being held on these particular types) and great advice doug, I could not agree more, in the past I have bought a few Ancient coins due more to the thought of an increase in value, than my own like of the coin itself, but I can honestly say I never bought a coin I didn't like.... I also haven't sold any Ancient coins, heh, traded a few, but any of the coins I may have bought partly thinkin' they might increase in value have grown on me, and become part of my personal collection. But these days I try to follow your reccomendation fully doug, I truly enjoy the coins I do end up spending my hard earned and what is seemingly less each month ammounts of money on.... I make sure it is something I truly want in my collection, hopefully to stay with me and to be bequethed to whomever I see fit after my death. With that in mind I truly love this coin, I loved the one that I saw a while ago, the only other one I ever saw for sale with this portrait, I always thought it was Elagabalus myself, but that's what the one was being sold as so.... but anyways I loved the young portrait style the moment I saw it, and when I saw this example for sale I had to have it. I haven't seen many Syrian tetradrachmai of such a young person, which as was said would make more sense for young Caracalla, but it does have the title 'AVTK' = Autocraticus, and Elagabalus did have some very young portraits on some of his coins struck in Rome, like the one in my avatar.... either way, I will like it the same. Whether it is rare or not, I just like the portrait style, it is elaborate and well done. The eagle is great too by the way, I like it's stance compared to some other tets. I also like the clarity of the three dots at the tips of the laurel leaves on his portrait, I have some Caracalla tets with large dots between words and I always liked that too... I guess I always had a thing for the dots on Roman coins.
