Talk about buying the slab instead of the coin...

See this:

https://www.scotsmanauctionco.com/ViewLot.aspx?LotId=13404

Regarding these GSA coins, aside from the slab, is there any way a person could tell that this coin is from the GSA hoard? Probably not. If you were to crack that out of it's slab, it would lose a good deal of it's value.

Thoughts?

-StephenS

 

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Reminds me of those coins you see in the movies where people bite the coin to see if it's real.

 

No distinguishing characteristics that I've ever heard of, other than being in the plastic.

I wonder if anyone has ever counterfeited GSA plastic holders. Probably.

 

That is interesting, but to me at least, the GSA pedigree means nothing. What is the difference between a beat up gold coin that was sitting in a government vault, and a gold coin that was in someones safe deposit box?

 

I definitely agree.

 

I would have to say this coin is probably genuine. But again, who really cares where it sat for the last few decades. "Buy the coin, not the slab," is the advice I keep hearing.

 

There are people who collect treasure coins and other coins with a pedigree. I think this is a legitimate branch of the hobby. And while there is no difference between a coin sitting in a government vault and a private safe deposit box other than where they have been, there is also no substantial difference between most coins that we collect that can account for huge differences in price either. Things like date, mintmark, condition, and pedigree are all valuation factors based upon common agreement among collectors and not on the intrinsic value of the coin.

Everything is collectible.

 

Do not confuse these so called GSA gold coins with the GSA dollar sales. The GSA sells most anything the government comes up with that is considered surplus. And I am sure these were NOT discovered in some Treasury vault. They were more likely from a drug bust or IRS attachment (The government DOES dispose of gold coins from such things that way.). Someone bought them at a GSA sale and got NGC to slab them that way.

And I HAVE seen the slabs, they do exist, but it is just a regular NGC slab and on the label under the grade it says "GSA Sale" David Lange has also discussed them on the NGC forum and he admits they are not from anything like the GSA dollar sale just that they were sold by the GSA.

 

Along the lines of who cares where the coin came from,doesn't a verified pedigree have an effect on the coin value? I believe collector's are willing to pay more for coins from "famous" collections ie: Eliasberg etc. It's just unfortunate that the GSA attribution is confused by some collector's due to the cache attached to the GSA Silver $ sales

 

they say "In around 2006, an audit of the U.S. vaults revealed the presence of about 5,000 pieces of vintage gold coinage, and it was decided that NGC would have the exclusive honor of certifying these coins with the GSA pedigree noted on the insert."

I never heard of this, and don't you think that NGC would have promoted this in Coin World?

Edit: Okay, thanks for the comment, condor.
I hadn't heard this.

 

I like to collect the GSA dollars-I'll tell you one reason why.
It would be more dificult to counterfit the packaging than counterfiting the coin to most machinists. EDM machine for the die and a press.....cheap. Here in mid- Michigan I have seen EDM's and presses more than capable of making a coin indistinguishable from an original article scrapped (thrown out) many times.
I don't care about magnification, experience bla, bla, bla. I read a comment once that said something like "if that 1878 whatever coin doesn't have that die crack then it certainly is a fake since all the coins minted in that year used the same die."
I laughed my edited off. The change in the coin from the polish marks on the die and the small die crack are huge by todays manufacturing standards. Adding those features to a die would be easy for any one of about about 2000 out of work or starving machinists here in greater Detroit.
These counterfits that you see evaluated on this board or detected by NGC or PCGS are horrible terrible fakes. Anything (counterfit) better than a 5 out of 10 will never be detected.
I don't care if you have an electron microscope, a mass spectrometer, and 40 years experience its not enough because creating an exact duplicate is just to easy with 4K worth or gear and a blank.

I guess I should elaborate on "easy."

Have you ever taken a towel out of the dryer and folded it over twice so that it was a smaller square?
That's how easy.
People that collect coins should realize this.

 

Welcome to CoinTalk, JP.

With very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very few exceptions every counterfeit coin can be detected by a properly-trained numismatist with the right tools and knowledge.

For example - - - Except for a true MS-70 or PF-70, every coin has defects. If counterfeit dies are made by exactly copying a genuine coin those defects will be copied to the dies. When counterfeit coins are struck from those counterfeit dies every one of them will have the identical defect.

Suppose the host coin has a hit in the field and counterfeit dies were made by precisely copying the host coin. Every counterfeit coin made from those counterfeit dies will have this "repeating depression". The hit on the host coin will show raw metal where the surface was damaged BUT the repeating depressions on the counterfeit coins will have luster in them because the repeating depressions were struck with the coin. And, as the fake coins are documented, the repeating depressions will be added to the list of markers to look for because every coin made from those dies will have those repeating depressions.

 

Time to fire up the FOIA request documents. See how this baby will turn up.

 

I have seen a few of the coins in NGC GSA slabs. They are regular NGC holders and they have a gsa notation. There was even a receipt one time when I saw one, and if I recall correctly one of the large bullion dealers had sold them.

 

Right on!!!

Many artifacts once a lineage has been attached to it draws more interest to it. Whether it be; cars, paintings, furniture, primitive antiques, or in this case coins. Do I believe because it is linked to GSA it will command more money? I think not. What I do believe is that it is a marketing strategy that draws more people to show interest in the piece. If we were talking a civil war artifact and there were letters, dates, names, and so on then I believe a link to its history will command a higher value. I don’t believe a Redfield coin is worth more simply because it’s in a Redfield holder. In fact it could be graded higher than the market realizes today decreasing its value having a reverse effect. And there’s the Omaha hoard along with others. If you have interest in the type of historical whereabouts of a coin I would first examine the coin before making my offer/bid.

 

Once again-Your argument only holds true if a counterfiter were to create a horrible, terrible die which would be making terrible counterfits. Great fakes have never been detected so they will never be documented! A die is a metal alloy of defined dimention and tolerances. Nothing more or less.

"Suppose the host coin has a hit in the field and counterfeit dies were made by precisely copying the host coin."

Once again-this would be a very sub par effort at counterfiting a 90/10 silver dollar-Why would you asume anyone would copy a host coin--they would just create a new die from scratch. A "perfect" die or "MS-70" die as defined by what physical tollerances are called out for on the print.
These new (fake) dies could be produced at .002", .001", or even .0002, or .0001" tolerances.
Then they would be pollished with 10 micron, then 5 micron, then 2 micron diamond paste etc.
Look, In 1878 dies were created to press coins by hand. Today we have computers, CNC, tungston crabide and diamond cutting tools, the EDM machine,
ect. Here in this part of the world there are THOUSANDS of people that have this level of tooling in their garages and basement shops.

People that think they have it all figured out are the easiest to scam. Now that you have it all figured out you clearly have nothing left to learn about metallurgy or die making. You have probobly created hundreds of dies from tool steel in your career.

 

JPIKSTON, just as some people here might underestimate the skill of the craftsmen who presumably could produce super high quality counterfeits, the craftsmen might also underestimate the skill of the numismatist in detecting the counterfeits. I'm pretty sure I could be fooled. I'm also pretty sure there are many folks who would not be fooled, and those are people I buy from for the most part. It's a case of neither side fully appreciating the capabilities of the other, but only one side is likely to land in prison.

 

I do agree with your view. But me personally, I may pay a little more for the pedigree of a shipwreck coin because of the history, but I would not for most other cases.
One exeption would be if there was rock solid proof a coin came from a famous robbery or outlaw, but I don't see that happening any time soon.

And to quote you "Everything is collectible." To each his own.