Swastika or NOT Swastika?

Dear CT Friends!
When I am seeing at almost every auction description of this early electrum series like a "swastika" type, every time I am in great doubts. My oppinion is that this is only positive / negative from the same punches. I mean that the obverce die of this seriee is only the same result of blow on the anvil of same punch which we can see at reverce. But in numerous combinations, so it is only a question to view a lot of this coins and find the same in positive and negative. This is the same illusion like 90% of people who are first time seeing cyzicene reverce asking: "This is a swastika?"
So, my oppinion this is NOT a swastika. What do you think.

Below an illustration to my idea (at second photo obverce mirrored and turned). Photo from CNG Triton XX lot 286.

 

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I would say it certainly *looks* like a swastika. Whether it was intended to be or not 2500 years ago likely depends on whether the symbol was in use then where this coin was minted (Asia Minor?).

 

Beautiful coin, Ivan!

No, it's not a swastika! For a symbol to be what we define as a swastika, it has to stand for racism, persecution, and hatred! The symbol on your coin does not represent any of those evils. We define the word swastika (at least most of us) as the symbol used by the Third Reich even though the symbol belongs to many cultures. The ancient benevolent meaning of the symbol is tainted by the modern malevolent meaning. Needless to say, if we were to use or display the symbol, we would likely be arrested.

 

https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10007453

 

no read history

 

Swastika symbol was in use in that time, it even can be finded at obverce of famous "Phaneos" types coins (I have no acces to my full photobank to post an example).

This is not my coin I am only interested at this type coins. At any way, I am as an ancient coins collector and amateur historican can see at the context of this coins a swastika as a very ancient solar symbol.

 

Gotcha. Don't let the symbol stop you from getting one!

 

It probably is a swastica. Don't be nervous - the symbol was used all over the world since before there was written language. We don't see it in the West anymore because of WWII and it's adoption by hate groups but in the East you'll still see it at Buddhist temples.

 

OK, I am not nervous about a swastika - for me it is a solar symbol first of all
I think a widespread description of this coins as "swastika type / pattern or etc." is wrong.
Because if there was an aim for engraver to do a swastika die there was no any problem to do a quality swastika. But all this coins only looks like swastika. For my oppinion a correct name for type must be something like "positive / negative or etc." I am nervous only about this thing

 

This is tooooo far for me I can find swastika at the old icons in the Orthodox churches here in Kiev (XI-XIII AC)

 

I agree with you @I_v_a_n. Looks like a positive/negative image to me. I think the swastika design is neat, but more pronounced like this one:

 

Yes, the word swastika comes from the Sanskrit svastika, which means “good fortune” or “well-being." The motif (a hooked cross) appears to have first been used in Neolithic Eurasia, perhaps representing the movement of the sun through the sky. To this day it is a sacred symbol in Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, and Odinism.

 

This is all 100% untrue. I could hoist a Nazi flag outside my house and the most that would happen is my neighbors might be angry and people may protest. But, I certainly wouldn't get arrested. I live in America; this might not apply in part or all of Europe.

No use of the swastika symbol before WW1 is at all connected to hatred, persecution, or racism. At the time the OP coin was minted, the swastika could not have possibly been connected to burning Jews because there were no Jews!

And, even when the symbol is used as a marker of hate, we can collect numismatic and historical items without endorsing the sentiment. For instance (not my coin):



Although I am not interested in collecting them, there are also neo-Nazi silver rounds depicting Hitler and the swastika, and I consider them legitimate numismatic items. (Hitler is not depicted on any coins.)

Please don't spread misinformation about the swastika symbol.

Edit: Changed "before the 1930s" to "before WW1", since the swastika was used by national socialist movements after WW1 but before the 1930s in connection with the idea of a "racially pure" state.

 

I know there will always be some hyper sensitive snowflakes who believe any historical items with a swastika is evil and should be destroyed, and those who own them should be condemned.

To those people I say, get over it. The swastika was a peaceful religious symbol 5000 years before the Austrian Corporal with the Charlie Chaplin mustache coopted it for 12 years for his murder and evil sprees. And guess what, to more than 1/3 of the world's population it is still a religious and/or cultural symbol of peace and good luck.

And as a collector I can collect these coins with these symbols, be they ancient or WWII, and not associate myself with the NAZI garbage...but rather as a legitimate collector and fan of history who is trying to preserve and learn about history.

And to those who still object to it, I have one simple message: Get over it. I will not apologize and your feelings don't get to dictate what I do in my personal time.

 

Positive/Negative to me as well. Alternative to being a Swastika it could be a "mill-sail pattern". This one (not mine) is described as either/or:


https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?p=lot&sid=863&lot=147

 

uuuuuuuhhh
for me it was only a "technician" question to find a truth about this coins. Because I do not like this auction descriptions for this type:
http://cngcoins.com/Coin.aspx?CoinID=317948
https://www.biddr.ch/auctions/numismatiknaumann/browse?a=99&c=1852&l=90001
https://www.sixbid.com/browse.html?auction=3213&category=65574&lot=2682366

I believe, that after our discussion here we can see a changes at auctions descriptions after some time. This is the aim of topic.

 

All of that might be true, Paul. The symbol represented positive beliefs for many thousands of years before it was hijacked. It would not be the first time that the meaning of symbols are changed by association with extremists. Nor will it be the last time that I am misunderstood. I think it's a cool geometric symbol but I'm not going to paint one on the door of my car and then take a ride through the city.

Furthermore, none of this has anything to do with whether or not the symbol on the coin in Ivan's post is a swastika. I don't believe that it is.

 

Four part incuse square?

 

Yeah, not a good idea. The symbol has been co-opted much like St. Peter's Cross has. I don't think you'll see a swastika publicly displayed in the US anywhere outside of a neo-Nazi context or the interior of a Buddhist temple.

 

Perfect! LOL