Struck Counterfeit 1798 "Large Cent"

I was asked by a member here in another thread to post some of my certified struck counterfeit "coins" in this forum, so here goes...

This is the first "variety" discovered in the fall of 2015 of these very deceptive struck fakes; we have documented 20+ to date from a 1787 Mass "half cent" to a couple of 1836 Gobrecht "dollars".

There are 9 documented examples of this 1798 "S-158" large cent, going back to an auction example in 2013 to a recent appearance of a raw example on eBay last month (listing was removed by eBay then).

The posted images are of my two examples, both currently in genuine PCGS holders.

Much research has been done on these over the past couple of years, and for those interested my research article and all the details about this variety can be found on Coin Week at:
https://coinweek.com/counterfeits/s...98-s-158-large-cent-1-page-attribution-guide/

Jack

 

Log in or Sign up to hide this ad.

Great read. I'll guess PCGS has ask for the slabs back?

 

They would certainly like to get them back...

I continue to share them in seminars and coin show exhibits as examples of how deceptive they really are.

 

I was hoping this might spur some discussion!

 

I thought a few more folks would join in as well. Maybe these guys have some thoughts. @Conder101 @Insider

 

At some future date the fakes will be so convincing that it will kill the hobby. The only solution would be a world wide effort to prosecute those reponsible, but the chance of this happening is slim.

 

I was aware of this, but had never seen the Coinweek article. Very interesting!
Is the S-158 the only large cent variety thus far affected? I wonder why this particular variety was chosen.

 

8 different large cent varieties including 1799, 3 half cents and a 1787 Mass half cent documented for early copper to date.

 

Jack is doing wonderful work on behalf of all of us. There are some fakes out there that have fooled specialists. Jack and his "team" are on the case 24/7/365. We owe them our thanks.

 

Jack D. Young, posted: "They would certainly like to get them back...
I continue to share them in seminars and coin show exhibits as examples of how deceptive they really are."

This is a touchy problem. I've been authenticating coins professionally since 1972 and will agree that the fakes are getting extremely dangerous. One thing we have always had on our side is the public. You see, when a TPGS sends a coin out, millions of folks judge both the opinion of authenticity and the coin's grade.

AFAIK, when the counterfeiters targeted the Large Cent series, members of the EAC were the folks who detected the fakes that were slabbed as genuine. I will say that most of these fakes have been corroded and circulated which makes authentication more difficult.

Now what I find very self serving, , , and NOT GOOD for our hobby is when a knowledgeable numismatist takes a TPGS error and puts it on display - anywhere. This nonsense about helping folks and sharing information while keeping the coin in a TPGS slab is, well... I see it as a . I sincerely hope this "grandstanding circus act" comes to an end.

Jack D. Young, posted: 8 different large cent varieties including 1799, 3 half cents and a 1787 Mass half cent documented for early copper to date."

I'll add the Hawaii Cent to this batch of fakes.

If you have any of these coins that were purchased in the last two years, send it in to be checked. Then millions of folks can verify the opinion.

 

A quick google search mentions the following 7 early large cent varieties for which
struck fakes/Replicas have been found:

1793 S-5
1795 S-76b
1796 S-85
1796 S-93
1797 S-136
1798 S-158
1799 S-189

 

Most likely from the Coin Week articles; no seperate article written (yet) for the fake 1794 "S-44".

 

Scary stuff!

 

Very interesting topic.

 

Care to share the dates/varieties of the counterfeit half Cents your team has discovered?

 

That’s part of what’s good about forums like this, the ability to share dissenting opinions.

I agree the TPG’s have a large impact on collectors and the Hobby in general and certainly provide a service to both. I am neither for or against TPG’s, and I know mistakes are human and happen in both authentication and (perceived) grading, with the major TPG’s guarantee of authenticity being the largest benefit of the service in my opinion, but many hobbyists and collectors take the labeled opinion as gospel.

TPG’s and slabs are no substitute to collector knowledge (again in my opinion), and showing a non-seasoned copper collector one of the fakes in a slab typically leads to disbelief and lively discussions on just how can that be? On the other hand, I have shown large scale images of a fake example to collectors only to have them state it is “obvious” and a “TPG” would see right through it until they see the actual imaged example in the slab. Unfortunately the slabs give credence to just HOW DECEPTIVE THESE EXAMPLES ACTUALLY ARE, as they have passed both knowledgeable collectors and TPG graders as well.

Not sure how showing these in the slabs or putting them in individual’s hands to review against other known examples is “self-serving” or a “grandstanding circus act”, but that is your opinion, although I should have stated that the displays and counterfeit detection seminars these are displayed in have only been at EAC (Early American Coppers) functions to date.

And yes, the 1847 Hawaiian large cent is one of the struck fakes also “out there”, along with many silver denominations including struck fake 1836 Gobrecht “dollars”.

 

It's not just the EACers, I believe most of the other high-quality fakes that have made their way into TPG slabs were also identified originally by series specialists and then brought to the TPG's notice. I know the 1872 S half-dollar with the small S reverse was identified by Seated Liberty Coin Club members. The TPG graders are probably missing them because they are not specialists in all fields and in most cases it is that specialist knowledge that allows the counterfeits to be recognized. Once they are brought to the TPG's notice then they know to look for them and no more get slabbed. It's the knowledgeable collector not the authentication services that are making the discoveries.

 

Jack D. Young, posted: "That’s part of what’s good about forums like this, the ability to share dissenting opinions."

In this case you and I have no dissenting opinion. Educating folks about counterfeits and correcting a TPGS's errors is an admirable pursuit! I wish I had your knowledge about early copper. I'm sure I should have "missed" the fact that those coins were state-of-the-art counterfeits - just as PCGS did. Thank goodness the system of "authenticating-the-authenticators" that has ALWAYS been in place works.

I agree the TPG’s have a large impact on collectors and the Hobby in general and certainly provide a service to both. I am neither for or against TPG’s, and I know mistakes are human and happen in both authentication and (perceived) grading, with the major TPG’s guarantee of authenticity being the largest benefit of the service in my opinion, but many hobbyists and collectors take the labeled opinion as gospel.

As many should if they are not qualified to grade or authenticate coins for themselves! You and I both agree that the TPGS's are a good thing!

TPG’s and slabs are no substitute to collector knowledge (again in my opinion),

That is a FACT, not an opinion. KNOWLEDGE IS POWER!

...and showing a non-seasoned copper collector one of the fakes in a slab typically leads to disbelief and lively discussions on just how can that be? On the other hand, I have shown large scale images of a fake example to collectors only to have them state it is “obvious” and a “TPG” would see right through it until they see the actual imaged example in the slab. Unfortunately the slabs give credence to just HOW DECEPTIVE THESE EXAMPLES ACTUALLY ARE, as they have passed both knowledgeable collectors and TPG graders as well.

I'm 100% positive that if you told these idiots you mention that the fake coins "passed" a grading service as genuine they would believe you. My examples of counterfeits that passed detection are "RAW." My students know that I don't grandstand or claim to be "Better Than" or "More Expert" than any of my numismatic peer's inside or outside a TPGS - including you.

Not sure how showing these in the slabs or putting them in individual’s hands to review against other known examples is “self-serving” or a “grandstanding circus act”, but that is your opinion, (if you don't understand...well...) although I should have stated that the displays and counterfeit detection seminars these are displayed in have only been at EAC (Early American Coppers) functions to date.

I'll guarantee the EAC folks would get a better idea of what the coins looked like if they were "raw" and placed under a stereo microscope! The reason those coins passed detection in the first place is BECAUSE THE FOLKS AT THE TPGS DON"T EXAMINE ALL COINS using a stereo microscope! That is the reason the fakers have banged them up and corroded them!! Otherwise, they probably would have been detected much sooner by the TPGS without any outside help. That is my opinion based on what I've seen and I don't claim to be a copper "expert."

And yes, the 1847 Hawaiian large cent is one of the struck fakes also “out there”, along with many silver denominations including struck fake 1836 Gobrecht “dollars”."

Keep up your good work. I've just suggested there is possibly a way to do it with more "class" that will accomplish the same outcome without disparaging the TPGS's.

I'm reminded of a funny story from the 1980's. I walked past the PCGS table and there was one showcase with a black velvet liner. In the case was a mislabeled NGC slab. A very low class stunt on their part. I walked around the show and purchased a cheap dollar in a mislabeled PCGS slab. I showed it to the PCGS guys and suggested their display was a sleazy practice that reflected poorly on their business and all TPGS's. Then I showed them their "error" and said I could have bought another mistake to show them but it was too expensive. The next time I passed their booth, the NGC coin had been removed.

 

IMO, that's a better C/F than the Large Cents as it passed in high grade with "virgin" surfaces that would have made detection of the large cents easy (if examined at high power by someone who knows what the surface should look like at 20X-40X).