I managed to screw up Ruben's topic so I am starting a new one. I mentioned in another topic that I saw this coin... which is a 1918/7-S in MS64FH which is up for sale at the FUN auction. http://coins.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=1121&Lot_No=3807 This is a seriously rare item, especially with full noggin. However, from looking at the few mint states examples that I have seen in person plus as many as I can online, it looks to me like there just might be two dies that created these. Here's what I think is the weaker of the two.. And here's the better of the two. It would be easy to put this down to strike, but these are both from FH coins. Also, look CLOSELY at the position of the mint mark, I do see a difference.
I agree. BTW - these photo's look like you reverse embrossed them. We should also have a new thread on Feet. Liberty has great feet here. Ruben
I know, I was thinking that they looked reverse embossed. Arrgh. There are a couple of dies where her feet are recut, I have to dig out Cline's book, I'm also waiting for my copy of Knauss's book (I couldn't find one for a while and then boom, all over eBay) to arrive.
Nope, those are both from the same die. Compare the patterns of the die flow lines. There are also two faint "lines" at the bottom right of the 9 one going down and the other out at an angle almost like the legs of an R. They are stronger on the first coin but still visible on the second. Below the star next to the designers initial there is a small gouge clearly visible on both coins. Same die, slightly different die states.
Conder, I believe you are right! Any differences in the two coins are a factor of Die Stage (EDS, MDS or LDS)! Frank
Maybe it's the lighting or the angle that's confusing me then. Here's how this came about.. I have been looking at the following two coins VERY closely, and when you step back and take a look at the mint mark on each (In the large picture) they do appear to be different mint marks and one sure does look, to me anyway, very slightly off from the other, placement-wise. Or maybe I am still on too much cold Medicine? http://coins.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=1121&Lot_No=3806 http://coins.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=1121&Lot_No=3807 Don't know if I will be able to pull it off, but I am torn here. The 63 is a better strike, the 64 is a lousy strike for a FH but, this coin is SO rare in MS64FH that I am having a hard time not giving it serious thought.
rld, Since they are from different Die Stages of the Dies, there are going to be subtle differences in the coins! As Dies are taken out if use, ground and polished or other repairs made time and time again for re-use, much of the details and lettering are effected. This combined with Die Deterioration, can make a coin from the EDS of the Die and another coin from the LDS of the Die, appear that they came from two different Dies. There is also the problem with the different sizes of the pictures you posted! If you can, resize the pictures of the two coins so that they are the same size (perspective-wise) and then compare the two coins. Frank
Frank, I went on heritage's site and looked at about 12 more of these guys, it appears that it's just a matter of angle that's throwing me off here. You are spot on about EDS and LDS, the earlier die coins show the overdate much more clearly, with the later die coins sometimes not showing much more than a straight edge at the top of the "8" in "1918". I must have spent 2 hours over the past week looking those two coins over.. this is killing me
rld, I have only looked at the pictures of the MS-64FH and the MS-63FH currently up for auction on Heritage and I am not impressed with either one! They are both soft, weak strikes that barely qualify as Full Head specimens and the MS-63FH is pretty rough. To be brutally honest, I would expect much more in eye appeal and quality in a MS-64 than the one on Heritage! If you are he&% bent on purchasing one of these rare Varieties, then I would hold out for a much better MS-64FH or higher grade to come along and would probably lean towards a PCGS graded one. Frank
Frank, Problem with these is that I don't think there IS a high grade one that's well struck. Jay Cline says that 12 Full Head coins exist, Between PCGS and NGC there's 8 in MS64, 3 in MS63 and 39 in any grade. I'll go out on a limb here and say that at LEAST 1/3 of those are crackouts or crossovers. This particular one is one of the worst that's been market graded FH (If we were discussing, say, the 1930 or so then I don't think that ANY of them would be FHs) but the best one really isn't much better, there's only one with a really well defined ear hole that I have seen and that coin has a lot of hits on it, it's also the one that last sold 8 years ago for $149,500! Regardless, if I decide that I am seriously interested I will fly down there to look at it in person. Reality is, I think I will probably pass on it. This is the coin that I WANT and the one that really has me losing sleep.. http://coins.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=1121&Lot_No=3801 It sold for $97k in 05, and about $75k last year. 3 exist in this grade, One of which I understand won't see the market for decades, the other has toning that I don't like and isn't as well struck. Bill
Even if I don't get either of those, there's plenty of "sleeper" dates in the sale that are worth chasing down, some dates that people don't appreciate for their rarity.
Bill, That coin has a lot of hits on it for a MS-67FH...especially on the Obverse! With that many hits, I wonder how it got a grade above MS-65FH??!! Frank
Frank, It is an MS65FH, problem is, the MS65FHs that I have seen are, at at stretch, MS64s. 1916s seem to be among the worst of all coins for market grading. What has attracted me to the coin is the strike, which is very strong for what it is. Not as stupendous, of course, as Heritage would lead you to believe, but still a particularly strong strike for the issue. Compare the detail on Liberty's head on this coin to some other 16s, I think it's well hit. While we're at it, these are the others I want to look at in my hand.. http://coins.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=1121&Lot_No=2718 http://coins.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=1121&Lot_No=3826 http://coins.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=1121&Lot_No=2694 http://coins.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=1121&Lot_No=2712 What do you think? I'm flying down for the preview so we'll see what they look like in person.
I think it is the angle seen prominently with the mint mark. Here's things that look the same to me, the lines that condor noticed are circled in purple.
