Scared about collecting ancients

Okay, I have a better sense of where you're at now.

Clearly the best strategy for you, given your primary concerns and goals, is to establish a relationship with a dealer who can represent you at auctions, broker deals, and otherwise guide you towards purchases which fit your desires. The fee charged will be trivial in the scheme of things and will allow you peace of mind.

Just a couple of final thoughts though: surfaces of ancient coins generally aren't "original", at least not in the way collectors of moderns think, and NGC, which is by far the best of the few ancient coin slabbing services, does not guarantee authenticity of the coins they slab (although of course they try to avoid slabbing fakes).

 

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If you are just starting in ancients, buy raw coins from some of the sources mentioned here and you will be able to return the occasional fake.

PLEASE do not let the slabbed modern coin trend affect your ancient collection. It is a sacriligious marketing ploy for newbies and the truly OCD. The slab DOES NOT GUARANTEE AUTHENTICITY. It is like buying an insurance policy that offers no insurance, but the policy comes in a nice frame.

I bought my first coin a dozen years ago for $450 from a now defunct dealer. I was very concerned about buying a fake. Since then I have spent over one hundred fold with not a fake or a slab in the mix (I actually broke an AU55 1861 Double Eagle from an NGC slab)

Have fun, go slowly, be careful, but don't get paranoid (i.e. Slabbers)

 

If you want to avoid fakes/ undergrading then your best bet are CNG/ Elsens/ Kunker/ auction firms. They grade very conservatively, guarantee anthencity, will include even the most obscure flaw in description. Roma has in upcoming auction a Heiron II AV Dekadrachm that Gorny&Mosch had described as almost UNC with flan tear, Roma neglected this fact. So, I would research the coin from previous auctions/ use eye appeal/ to compare.....remember a CNG coin graded EF = MS-65 when slabbed for Heritage. I have a Elsen AV Solidus that they graded FDC/ it was WAY nicer then same coin slabbed as MS-GEM 5/5 5/5!!!!!!

 

This is worth considering, this type of person would definitely make better informed purchasing decisions than I could possibly make at this point. Which, as you suggested, would probably net more value per cost even when considering the fees. I'm hesitant to try something like this, however, because the "hunt" represents a large portion of what is enjoyable about coin collecting for me. Even if I'm just scouring ebay, finding the coin and making the purchase satiates that treasure hunting instinct!!!

Ya, I kinda got off on a tangent with the slabbing discussion pertaining to "modern" coins. I have no delusions about what should be expected of ancient coins. I'm not expecting cartwheeling luster on a coin that's been buried in the mud for 2000 years (or anything of a surface that could be considered "original" in any way). I'm looking solely for detail, eye appeal, and most importantly authenticity in these coins.

My tendency toward appreciating eye appeal over all else is what has led me to type collecting in general. I don't care about having a 1914 D wheat cent in particular, I just want the highest grade red blazer wheat cent that I can afford. If it's a 1958 D, then that's just fine by me (a wheat cent is a wheat cent in my mind, I only need 1).

Similarly, I 'd ideally like to obtain the best looking authentic coin that I can for each emperor. I don't care if it's run of the mill or a one of a kind. I just want it to look as "mint state" and un-mottled as could reasonably be expected.

Well, that's good to know. I had blindly assumed that NGC would back their evaluation with some type of guarantee.

 

They rely upon that blind assumption and profit handsomely because of it.

It is why I/we point it out often and in CAPS

 

I think Doug's point is that there's nothing NGC offers that one of the dealers mentioned in this thread don't also provide, with the added bonus (or integral component) of being able to hold your coin in your hand (and photograph it decently).

If you enjoy the hunt, this should go doubly for you. Researching ancient coins is part of the ancient coin hunt. Part of that research is learning who to trust.

 

Wonderful, sage advice you are getting here. I would add just a bit. The Roman As and the Dupondius are usually less expensive than the Sestertius and almost as large. Try to find coins that are lighter in color. They are easier to view. Stay away from junk. It stays junk forever. Lastly, the collecting of ancients is the hobby of a lifetime. You will never finish with it. You will never be bored with it. I bought my first ancient in 1960, a denarius of Nerva. It is no longer a lonely coin. It has a good deal of imperial company and these coins have given me an insight to the Ancient World I could never have acquired in any other way. They are the tangible link in a chain that stretches from you to antiquity and allows you to be a part of that world. But remember that you are not ever the owner of these coins. You are a temporary custodian of them for the yet unborn. Take good care of them.

 

Ya, a few people have mentioned that focusing solely on Sestertii might be a bit short sighted, and you are right, I should consider a Dupondius or As when a Sestertius is out of reach or unavailable. I'll just plan on going for the largest variety that I can afford in acceptable condition.

I know I'm a new-comer and all, but can we change what we call the As please? It's impossible to search sale listings when the item is called a word that is in every listing!!!!!!

But in all seriousness, I have used the links to sale sites that you guys have provided, one in particular that has an auction catalog ending in 10 days or so. There's a handful of coins that I'm interested in for my first purchase, and thought it would be great to hear some of you guys' opinions. But, I wanted to check and see if this kind of thing would be taboo (starting discussions about coins that are actively being sold). Seems like there could be some conflict of interest issues if a forum member had a coin for sale in the auction that was getting talked down by other members, or if I brought unwanted attention to an item that another forum member was planning to bid on. If you guys could let me know then that'd be great, I just wanted to be sure before I started the conversation.

 

The rule of thumb is to PM folks about current auction listings. Once the auction is over, in-thread discussion is fine.

 

You think looking for a single one is difficult, try search for a lot of them, using the plural form. You will find all sorts of interesting things, but probably no ancient coins.

 

Welcome to CT ancient forum Churd! I look forward to seeing the coins you pick up. As you can see members here are very helpful! One thing I will add since you like bigger coins is don't discount Roman provincials. There are some bigger sized provincials out there that can offer good alternatives to the Roman Imperials.
Here is a 31mm Philip II from vcoins as an example. Happy hunting!
https://www.vcoins.com/en/stores/ga...21gr__very_rare_bust_left/935369/Default.aspx

 

Don't buy a handful. Get one really nice coin and study it thoroughly.

 

@Cherd - I was in the same boat just a few months ago and the people here helped me through it. They’re a great group and will steer you in the right direction.

I’m not going to name who all helped me for fear of leaving someone out. The best part is they did it right – they didn’t spoon feed me, but instead gave me the tools to learn on my own. That way, I’m able to slowly become a productive member of the forum instead of an info-sucker.

 

I agree. When you discuss specific lots openly you drive up the price rightly or not for whchever of our group was already bidding on that lot. It is fine to say something like "There are many nice coins in the April 1 XYZcoins sale" but not "Lot 1234 in the XYZsale is a real sleeper which I'd bid on except for the fact I already have a nicer one." PM your friends before the closing and discuss openly only after the sale lots that you did not understand (high or low). Not everyone is impressed by mint state coins; not everyone is impressed by fine style coins; not everyone is impressed by rare coins. When we show what we bought after a sale is over, the majority of us can not understand why those were the lots we wanted.

For the record: I greatly respect the knowledge and professionalism of the NGC "graders" but have absolutely no use for their little plastic boxes and the idea so common among so many new collectors that those boxes are worth more money than the coin inside. The fact is no TPG could offer an authenticity guarantee on ancient coins. The subject is just too complex and the number of types too massive. NGC even refuses to slab certain coins, again wisely, because those specialties don't overlap with their expertise (yet?). Properly identifying some coins is not as obvious as we would like. I do not own a coin in an NGC slab and have never opened one. I do have a few coins that came with NGC labels from slabs opened by a previous owner. I enjoy seeing their opinions but do not worship them. I own many more coins sold by dealers whose expertise I respected who did offer a money back guarantee of authenticity and even have received a few refunds over the years when mistakes were discovered. We each will follow our own paths in the hobby.

 

I've gained much insight from this excellent thread. Great info and opinions.

 

I think I've seem them referred to as "aces" as well? Or is that something else?

 

There is no conflict between using the services of an ancient coin dealer and pursuing the coins you want. The dealer's role is to provide service to you. You determine what, and how much, service you want.

Personally, I've engaged a dealer since the very beginning of of my ancient-coin-collecting adventures, and this hasn't impacted my personal approach to finding coins by searching auctions and dealers' inventories. Once in a while, I find a coin that my dealer hasn't found, and get his advice on the coin's condition, price, etc., in order to make a purchase decision. More frequently, he finds coins for me that I wouldn't have found (from private individuals and his inventory). Most frequently, we work together on upcoming auctions to determine which coins to pursue, and how much to budget for them.

I still thoroughly enjoy searching auctions and dealers' sites for new coins that are appropriate for my collection, and would never give this up. As you've noted, for most collectors, being personally involved in the pursuit of a new coin only enhances the satisfaction of adding it to one's collection.

Changing topics: The information contained in this thread represents the broadest range of good advice you'll find anywhere. The only advice I would add is: Buy coins whose history and appearance appeal to you, coins that you'd like to look at over and over no matter how long you own them. If the coin's appeal is just marginal to you, for whatever reason (condition, appearance, centering, etc.) move on and be patient -- most likely, you'll eventually find another example that you really like.

 

Glen is correct here - and you will undoubtedly encounter other names and/or terminology that might now be - or in the past have been - considered "Naughty" - for example, the way the legend "Q. TITI" from a common Roman Republican denarius used to make some blush, too - it's just one of the things you need to consider. Latin (and Greek, for that matter) was enormously important in the development of English (among other modern Western languages) so consideration should be taken for the words' values in the original languages, even if the same or a similar word persists into modern language. Even though "as" as a denomination can be confusing, depend on what you know of syntax (seeing "as" used as a noun rather than a preposition, for example) and keep in mind that "as" (typically not capitalized in cataloging, BTW) may well be the denomination if you're looking at bronze Roman Imperial coins up through the mid-late 3rd century AD.

 

I fully agree with this sentiment but where we differ is that I do not consider condition, appearance and centering to be the most important factors to be found on a coin. It is fine with me if you do. I really would like to know the statistics on what percentage of all types of ancient coins exist in what NGC would call EF 5/5, 5/5 or better condition. Is it even 50%? Perfect condition, appearance and centering are great but I prefer coins that exist and coins that have interest, historical significance or rarity. It has been a century now since collecting for rarity was fashionable and as long since popular opinion favored having a thousand different coins over having ten perfect ones. I do not mind having a coin that has one very special thing going for it even if it has faults. Collect the way you prefer. There is nothing wrong with slabs IMO as long as they can be cracked open when you tire of them.

 

I read for several months before buying my first ancient coin. I read books, on line articles and sources like this discussion board. I learned a lot from personal websites as well including that of Doug Smith. I really enjoyed the scholarly discussions on Forum Ancient Coins, and it was a lot of fun to engage with others who enjoyed ancient coins.

My advice would be to have fun. Do not worry about what other people collect. Find out what you like and then see where this takes you in terms of your collecting habits.

In terms of sources for coins I would stay away from Ebay until you have some experience with judging fakes. Ebay can be a good source, but not without experience. Find dealers you can trust. Do a search on this site. there are plenty of lists of reputable dealers. Do not be afraid to ask questions. People here are always willing to help.

I think you probably already have a pretty good idea from earlier responses that many collectors here do not like slabs for ancient coins. There is nothing quite like holding a 2000 year old piece of history in your hand. Why would anyone let a piece of plastic get in the way?