I submitted a Morgan dollar to PCGS for grading which returned what I think is an impossible determination. I had an original bank roll of Morgan Dollars which im certain were never opened. Every coin from that roll received a grade. But the rarest date and coin which was from that roll received a determination that it was genuine but cleaned. To me, its impossible that the coin was cleaned. It doesnt look cleaned to me but of course i dont claim to be as expert a grader as the folks at PCGS. But still Im certain that this roll had never been opened none of the other coins in the roll were determined to be or looked to be cleaned. A private dealer who looked at it also doesnt think it was cleaned. The roll contained several pl and dmpl's. Can any of you give me an opinion of whether or not in your experience the grade can change upon resubmission with PCGS? I have collected coins for over 30 years and have many handed down from the family. I have purchased graded coins but never ever submitted to a grading service until this roll. Im a bit disappointed and surprised that they have determined this coin to have been cleaned. I think its impossible unless it was done over a 100 years ago before it went into the roll and besides i see no signs of cleaning. I know the roll was never opened in the almost century my family had it. Are there conditions that can occur while within the roll that would give the appearance of cleaning? Appreciate your thoughts.
By the way , I forgot to mention the coin im referring to and thinking about re-submitting or submitting this time to NGC is an 1878 8TF Morgan $1.00 which I believe to be in MS64 to MS65 DMPL condition.
coinman I understand. Im new at this and although an old collector need to figure out how to post a photo here. I have a never posted a photo of anything online before. I guess you could say im low tech. I will figure it out and post it. But i guess my question to you still would be , assuming everything I said is true, do you feel re-submission can result is different result? Im new to the submission thing as well and had planned to start sending some of my long time held better coins and rolls in for grading. Is re-submission ever warranted in any cases? Thanks for all of your thoughts
Ok thanks. That what i had wondered. I wanted to know from those you who have a lot of experience with submitting coins to them, what the percentages were of having this type of determination reversed. I didnt want to waste any more of my money resubmitting to them if the chances were slim. I'll probably just cracked it out of this slab they stuck it calling it genuine because that will probably lower the value of the coin with that designation. I dont think its been cleaned and another dealer doesnt not either. If and when im ready to sell its probably best sold raw out of this holder which i think is wrong. All the best.
I had the same issues as you do with NGC with an 1943/2 Jefferson Nickel. This coin also came from a roll of UNC. 1943 Jeffersons from my late fathers safety deposit box. My dad worked for the Federal Reserve Bank for over 40 years. This roll was bank wraped roll that to my knowage was never opened! I went thought the roll and found an 1943/2 Jefferson 5 steps. I was like a kid at Christmas until I sent it into NGC and it returned in a body bag marked cleaned! This coin never saw the light of day in over 60 some years......it was never cleaned but as per NGC it was ! It came back as cleaned with unc. details . Good Luck with your Morgan !!!!
First of all what kind of roll were the pieces in?? If I remember correctly I believe that these coins came from the mint in sealed cloth bags only...and it was up to the banks to roll them... so as for being in an "original roll" I'm not sure there is such a thing. (I could be wrong but for some reason I think I remember this) Maybe a roll from an original bag but not from the mint. Secondly I have seen rolls where the coins on the end of the roll will actually get worn on one side because it's surface is exposed to the hits and nicks and rubs that come along with being on the end of the roll and the side protected won't show this.... this would most definitely be a red flag for a grading company and most likely result in a cleaned designation. I just recently bought a BU roll of walking liberty half dollars that showed this. But definitely a picture would help... and we can provide more answers.
What a coincidence! I just got my Spectrline model ENF-260C shortwave Ultra Violet source (black light) in the mail today. I've been looking at everything in the apartment with it. I noticed some of my coins would glow yellow (or florescence) under UV light. Upon close inspection the coins could have been cleaned. As you can see in the photo, the coins on top have florescence while those below don't. The stuff to the right is liquid dish detergent and powdered dishwasher detergent which also florescence. The pics don't show this well. The rocks above are Franklinite and Williamsite, the reason I bought the light. The coins are not reflecting the glow from the rocks. They glow all by themselves. Here's my theory. Coins cleaned with detergent will fluoresce, so will certain molds and mildew. Just look at my fridge under UV light, trust me, no detergent has been used there for some time. If for some reason your coins have slight mold mildew problems, the TPGs will reject them after looking at them under UV light.
Almost all Laundry detergents and many dish detergents contain UV brighteners. Rinsing well should remove these from metal. Some hunters wash their outfits in special detergents with no UV brighteners as they feel this makes them blend in with the background. Also since insects respond to UV extremely well ( UV Kill lamps), a person who hates insects might find it advantageous to do the same. Oils, oil products such as certain coin cleaners and preservatives fluoresces in UV, as do secretions such as saliva, sweat, and "more personal secretions". Jim
silverstream - First of all I would say that the chances of you even having an original bank roll are slim to none. To understand why I say that let me explain. When the silver dollars were shipped from the mint to the banks it was done in $1000 bags. You also have to realize that coin rolls didn't even exist until around the turn of the century. So any silver dollars could easily have undergone many things before they ever saw the inside of a roll. And banks did not always have bags of just mint fresh coins either. The coins were often mixed, some new some old. But yes it is still possible that some rolls were made up of mint fresh coins. All of that said you should also understand this. Even coins that have submitted to NGC & PCGS still sealed in original Mint Sets have been returned marked as harshly cleaned. This happens because the graders themselves do not remove the coins from the mint packaging, somebody else does that and then passes the coins on to the graders. So if they see coins that are badly hairlined they can and often do attribute those hairlines to harsh cleaning. When in fact they could have been caused by rough handling at the mint. The point I am trying to make is that regardless of the source, coins can still be attributed by a TPG as having been harshly cleaned when they were not.
I greatly appreciate your feedback. I may have mis-used the term original bank roll. Im sure the coins did originate in the $1000.00 bags as you say and were then rolled at the bank. But Im certain they were rolled at the bank in the late 1800's or early 1900's as the bank roll they were in was a bank the ceased to exist back in the 1930's. I believe the contents of the roll saw very little to no circulation aside from the handling by mint and bank as all of the coins from the roll are in terrific condition. You make very good points about what could have happened and what does happen. But it doesnt look cleaned to me in any way. Im not sure if you folks can determine a cleaned coin from a photo but i will try to post a photo this weekend if i can figure it out. Thanks again for all of your comments.
There are some extremely experienced members here who may assist you with worthy opinions. As I suggested, please don't "crack out" the coin before you afford some members an opportunity to offer an opinion.
There is no bank wrapped Morgans that early. There is no bank wrapped Morgans that early. I have never heard of any OBW Morgan's in fact OBW rolls did not even start until the 1930's for any coins as far I know. Dollars to cents were handled completly different than they are today. No one had any money to begin with so a roll of dollars would have been a pipe dream for the masses and of know practicable use. For merchants needing change for buisness they would often have small envelopes for say 50 cents, dimes and so on. No one needed these dollars to begin with except for gambling, birthdays and christmas. The earliest original paper bank wrapped rolls I have ever seen or heard of is 1934 for Lincoln's and 1936 for Buffalo's. In regards to the one coin that was determined clearned or downgraded/returned they are most likely right.
I'd love to see some pics of the coins, that will help me to determine if it has been cleaned or not.
Actually Ben, The N.F. String & Son company, Harrisburg, PA. established in the early half of the 1920's and produced coin wrappers for banking and other financial institutions of the time. Whether or not they manufactured any type of Paper product for Dollars, I can't say for certain.
