Reliability of Internet Dealers...

How likely is it that I would get a good coin if I bought one sight-unseen from an internet dealer? This sounds pretty risky, but there are a lot of offers out there and it seems that somebody must be satisfied or they wouldn't stay in business.

Here's a real life example using a coin dealer that I've seen mentioned on this site as pretty reliable - Coast to Coast, and a real offer. They offer $20 liberty gold pieces for $519 in "gem brilliant uncirculated" condition, their highest grade, their choice of dates. This seems pretty reasonable for even a common date, 1904 coin. What grade would I be likely to get on an offer like this since they offer two lower grades (select and choice) of uncirculated coins? Would it even be a sure thing that it would be uncirculated and not AU?

I'm not picking on Coast to Coast here, just injecting a bit of realism. What has been the experience out there?

 

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It will be as advertized with coast 2 coast but u need 2 check out dealers b4 u buy! For example feedback on ebay. That's a pretty good indictor. But not alway's.

 

Research

1. Ken Pines Coast to Coast was kicked out of the American Numismatic Association for selling whizzed coins.

2. eBay feedback is a gimmick and is no guantee of anything.

eBay sellers set up dual accounts or work with buddies (shills) and buy and sell back and forth to build up their rating.

eBay sellers refund happily in order to maintain those good numbers.

3. The online world is just like the real world, only moreso. In a small town, the local dealer must be honest because he is selling to his neighbors. In a big city, there is more wiggle room. Mail order brings more. Online delivers the maximum oppprtunities to anyone who has no intention of offering the best material at a competitive price. Generally, the online world tends to be just the opposite: the lowest grade the market can support at the highest price the seller will give in to.

4. If you want to validate a dealer, start with the ANA listings at www.money.org. And that is just a start.

5. I have bought mail order. I have even bought online. However, in those cases, it was because the dealer was validated by third-party affiliations. In other words, they were members of trusted communities, The Celator magazine and VCoins.com shops. I prefer to save my money in separate bank accounts and every year or two, I go to an ANA convention. I also make the Michigan State Numismatic Society shows for the same reasons. I can meet the dealer face to face and judge them as a person. I can see the material for myself and evaluate it.

 

Don`t you think this remark is overkill to the extreme? You are painting all ebay sellers with a big broad brush. Shill bidding is a problem in all areas of ebay (not just coins), but it is fairly easy to spot. I myself have reported and NARU`d at least a dozen crooks. And not just in the coins catagory.

You do a great disservice to the vast majority of honest sellers on ebay. I take insult at being called a shiller. I believe my feedback rating reflects my honesty, both as a buyer, and a seller.

Bruce

 

Like any other purchase, there are good and bad sellers. My experience has been about 95% good, but I won't send cash or money orders, I use PayPal. That gives a bit of security. F.Y.I.-Beware of cheap silver dollars from China!

 

I was glad to see that Mike mentioned this. When I read your initial post using Coast to Coast as an example this was the first thought that came to mind.

When considering any mail order purchase from dealers placing large ads in the coin publications or internet dealers, it can be easy to assume (you know what they say about assuming ) that they must be fine...never let a pretty ad in a periodical lull you into a false sense of security. Your best bet is checking them out through the ANA and asking others on the board about their experiences. There are so many of us here that someone is bound to have had experience with whomever you're considering.

That being said, one of my criteria for purchasing ANY coin mail order is a plainly stated return policy. If I don't like it for ANY reason it goes back...no questions asked. I've even established a relationship with a few dealers from various shows that will send me coins from time to time that they know I may be interested in, and if I choose to keep them I send payment. If not, I mail them back and all I'm out is the cost of postage. A small price to pay for certainty, IMO.

 

Bruce--

I think you are taking offense where it is unneccessary. I am an eBay regular. I have been buying on eBay since 1998 and selling for nearly as long and am now a Powerseller. I have a 100% rating. That rating means very little except that I work hard to keep my rating up. Please note that this is very different from working to provide great customer service (although I try to do that too) or having a very high level of personal integrity (which I also try to display).

My point is that while your feedback may reflect your honesty, that isn't true for most eBayers. "Great" feedback generally reflects 1)a buyers willingness to not leave feedback when they are dissatisfied just so that they don't receive a reciprocal negative, 2)a seller who witholds feedback to encourage their buyers to not leave negative feedback, 3)a person who is willing to do whatever the other party demands to avoid negative feedback. In short, eBay feedback usually means VERY little about a seller's (or buyer's, for that matter) integrity.

Chris

 

I think that the ebay feed back system is great if you read the comments. Some of those large ebay sellers are wonderful places to buy coins. I mean if someone is selling 100 or more coins per week on ebay and has 99.8 pos feedback I feel ok buying from them, and once I buy from them once and they are honorable I bookmark their list and see what they have now and then. The feedback is only there to help you find the honorable sellers, once you find them you can feel secure doing business with them from then on (by the way there are MANY honorable coin sellers on ebay). I do tend to buy cert coins though and that adds a measure of safety. By the way I would NEVER buy a "gem ms65 " raw coin sight unseen. As for online coin sellers I really like Heritage a lot.

 

A good return policy is needed. I also don't see why you would need to purchase anything sight unseen for any significant amount of money - if they do business over the internet, they should at least be able to supply you with a decent image. I say significant value, because I can understand if a coin dealer doesn't have the time to scan an image of all their inventory. But if you're going to drop cash on a coin, I would at least want to see something that shows me what I'm going to be receiving in the mail.

And, in my opinion, nothing speaks more about an online coin dealer than a solid reputation from honest folks in the hobby. If they don't have that, then I would work with the person on smaller purchases until she or he built a solid reputation with me. Negative marks against an online coin dealer makes it too risky.

 

I just took umbrage at the blanket statement by Mike. He says flat out, that ebay sellers are shillers. No qualifications to the statement. Not, some sellers on ebay set up dual accounts to bid ontheir own auctions. He is, of course, entitled to his opinion. I could not let a statement like that go unchallenged. I have run into many fine sellers in my years on ebay. Some of them are leaders in their field. Of course there are crooks that engage in the practices of shilling and worse.

Perhaps I took Mike`s statements too literally. Ebay can be a minefield to the uninformed. I have pointed out ebay`s shortcomings in these forums, and elsewhere. It is perhaps the fact that I know Mike is a numismatic journalist that I disagree with the statements that he made about ebay sellers. Unless he gets an editorial column, I don`t believe he could make statements like that in The Numismatist . I would hope he will clarify his remarks. I realize what we type here doesn`t always come out like we intend. I am as guilty as anyone of this, at times.

Bruce

 

Glad I read this as I was under the impression that Coast to Coast was one of the PREFERRED vendors. Now I,m hearing something diffeent. Should I be concerned buing from them?

I was just getting together an order.

thanks

 

I agree that his blanket statement is an exageration and a reputable publication could only print his opinion in an editorial. However, I also agree with the point behind his hyperbole, though; eBay can be dangerous for those who are uninformed (or who buy into the fallacy that feedbay is always an accurate representation of a seller's integrity).

 

Odd man out

I collect foreign coins - yes I am a darksider
Many if not most of the dealers I purchase from are not ANA members, but most are members of thier countries Numismatic Society.
Some are not
I am forced to purchase some coins I seek on eBay. I can not travel overseas each month to make purchases.

I watch feedback, I watch shipping costs and I check with various forums about unknown sellers.

A man wandered to a strange city at the gates of the city he met a blind man. The Stranger asked the blind man, "What kind of people live in this city"
The blind man replied with a question. "What kind of people lived in the city that you came from?" The stranger replied thives, scoundrals and cut throats,
The blind man stated, " That's what you will find here.

A short time later a second stranger wandered up to the gates of the same city.
The second stranger asked the blind man, "What kind of people live in this city"
The blind man replied with a question. "What kind of people lived in the city that you came from?" The stranger replied wonderful helpful loving people.
The blind man stated, " That's what you will find here.

To you I say welcome to the world of coin collecting and our CITY.

 

Thanks to all of you who posted. This is exactly the unbiased cross section of information and opinions that I was hoping to receive. This is a great forum. In the past I've purchased silver eagles and maple leafs from Ebay and was always satisfied with the result, maybe because I was looking strictly at price and not numismatic value. Otherwise I've purchased only third party graded coins, which is no sure thing but reduces the risk. I think I'll forget about purchasing raw coins unless I see them in person. At least then I have nobody to blame except myself.

 

One thing 4 sure everyone has an opinion! hehe

 

Up front and personal. Live and direct.

I could have used an adjective. "Some eBay feedback..." and "Some eBay sellers..." Whether that is properly hardly any, very few, few, maybe a few, some, too many, many, most, perhaps some, probably most, or every darned one, is up to the reader to fill in. What I said was literally and exactly true, no more and no less. Read into it what you want.

I agree with what I expect is your own opinion, that "most" eBay sellers are fine and honorable but that "a few" problem sellers taint my view of the rest.

How would that work for an ANA convention? I mean, would you go to an ANA bourse floor, or an auction from Heritage or American Numismatic Rarities and figure that it was OK because probably only "a few" of the coins are fakes or if only a few of the sales become one-way transactions? Could you imagine going to a convention bourse floor and telling dealer you want this coin and handing him the money and he takes your money and closes up shop right then and there... and heck, there are 300 dealers on the ANA bourse floor, so if this only happened 3 times, that would make the ANA convention 99% reliable, right?

I understand the value in commerce at a distance. We have been doing that since the Sumerians traded with the Hittites via promises on clay tablets. There is an excellent article called "Bourgeois Virtues" by Daniel McCloskey.

"A potent source of bourgeois virtue and a check on bourgeois vice is the
premium that a bourgeois society puts on discourse. The bourgeois must talk. The aristocrat gives a speech, the peasant tells a tale. But the bourgeois must in the bulk of his transactions talk to an equal. It is wrong to imagine, as modern economics does, that the market is a field of silence. "I will buy with you, sell with you, talk with you, walk with you, and so following....What news on the Rialto?"

"A market economy looks forward and therefore depends on trust. The persuasive talk that establishes trust is necessary for doing much business, and that is why coreligionists or co-ethnics deal so profitably with each other. Avner Greif has explored the business dealings of Mediterranean Jews in the Middle Ages, accumulating evidence for a reputational conversation. In 1055 one Abun ben Zedaka of Jerusalem, for example, "was accused (though not charged in court) of embezzling the money of a Maghribi trader. When word of this accusation reached other Maghribi traders, merchants as far
away as Sicily canceled their agency relations with him." Reputational gossip, Greif notes, was cheap, "a by-product of the commercial activity [itself] and passed along with other commercial correspondence." A letter from Palermo to an Alexandrian merchant who had disappointed the writer said, "Had I listened to what people say, I never would have entered into a partnership with you." With such information, cheating was profitless within the community."

Numismatics is a community.

 

Mike

Perhaps I did read your post the wrong way. I took your remarks to mean that you were saying all ebay sellers were guilty of these practices. Perhaps you really believe most are. I do not.

Of course there are way too many crooks on ebay. Some of the big powersellers virtually steal 5 figure incomes from the great masses of the uninformed/new collector. Feedback can play a big role in avoiding these guys. If you are a crook, a pattern will emerge in your feedback. To those here that are new to, or wary of ebay, you can use this to check on your potential sellers: http://toolhaus.org/. Check feedback left, as well as received.

I don`t get to go to the big national or regional shows. I know it is a tight club. I would find it hard to believe that all 300 of those BIG DOGS on the bourse floor have never been guilty of shady practices. Face to face is always best, but I will wager many here have horror stories regarding deals at shows and with their local dealers.

Ebay is the great equalizer. It allows the collector to realize something near retail prices. This was never possible before ebay. Joe Collector can now sell his 16-D Merc, or his CC Morgan dollar, and get nearly the same price as the big dogs. And the big dogs hate this.

Bruce

 

There are many reasons not to go, but if you want to go, then do. I go. I save my money between shows. Part of being "penny wise and pound foolish" is saying that it "costs too much" to go to a show. Collectors squander the cost of a show in many small ways -- impulse purchases, for instance.

Also, at a major show, you have 100 to 300+ dealers competing for your attention. On eBay, you, the buyer, compete against other buyers.

Anyone can join. If you go to enough shows, you get to be known. There are people who make money at a show walking coins across the room. Some people just buy. Others just sell. Most do both. I speak at Numismatic Theater presentations and I host the Educational Forums. Some are active exhibitors. Dedicated people coordinate the Young Numismatists. Others help with set-up and teardown. Local clubs man the registration desks. There is a lot of work to be done and if you are known as a "doer" then you have the respect of your peers. It makes a difference in the price you pay or the price you get.

There are no Santa Clauses. You are responsible for yourself. If you buy a shaved note from Snerdly T. Carpetbagger, you know who Snerdly is -- and so does everyone else. "coinseller21" can be anyone. When "coinseller21" is disgraced or NARUed, they come back as "coinseller22." There are "shady" dealers -- and far more "shady" collectors, believe me! -- but they are known in the face-to-face world of conventions and shows.

Well, yes, it was, but the barrier was the transaction cost. Now, the transaction cost is lowered. I agree that theoretically eBay makes life harder for professional dealers. However, in reality, professionals are just that and eBay is no more or less than the classified ads of a newspaper. All the yardsales in the world will not close Walmart. So, I agree, that in theory, eBay could bring buyers and sellers together at a very low cost of doing business and this is the reason that it is a popular sales medium. About two maybe three years ago now, Newsweek had a cover: "eBay Nation." So, there is no doubt that the medium is the message when it comes to buying and selling person to person.