reconditioning cleaned coins ...

hello.

years ago i purchased a stunning isabella quarter - i submitted it to pcgs for grading but it came back ungraded with an indication that it was cleaned. i accept their determination, even though i don't recognize what they idenitifeid as evidence of cleaning - it was probably dipped and probably the luster is "off."

anyway, i wonder if somehow i can weather it - you know, leaving it out for a bit of toning to take place - or leaving it next to something like steel or salt or subjecting it to cold then hot - something; i'm wondering if retoning it is possible, and in a short time, and whether it would appear fake, because i'd like to resubmit it to pcgs.

otherwise, any suggestion of a second-tier grader that is not as picky about cleaned coins?

i'd also like to know if my asking this is ... how to say ... offensive to any sensibilities, like "how dare you insinuate cleaned coins in an uncleaned coin marketplace?!?!" personally, i think some cleaned coins are more desireable than some uncleaned coins, and that the absolute criteria of uncleaned sometimes as arbitrary as first strike.

thanks for your consideration!

-greg

 

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So you're going to go from "cleaned" to "enviromental damage"? Best to leave it alone and in a hundred years or so it'll be graded to what you want. By doing anything to it, you'll just damage it. If you want that particular coin in a certain grade, sell the one you have and buy another that meets your criteria.

 

thanks for your reply - you are not incorrect, but you are overstating the environmental damage; and, besides, i'd rather sell it sooner than later. i've held onto it for a couple of decades already, i'd like to shift my holdings.

when iron oxidizes it rusts, but when silver oxidizes it tarnishes. tarnishing itself is superficial and does not damage the coin. dipping a coin merely removes that oxidation yet the sheen is affected; admittedly, since the sheen is affected, there's likely some actual damage to the coin. in any case, i'd merely like to foster some tarnishing. my silver clock tarnishes so easily, i figured this coin would, but it's still nice and shiny.

perhaps another grading service would grade it regardless?

there are "tips" on how to oxydize silver but i really don't want to introduce anything foreign, but perhaps i'll try out one such technique on a silver dime and see how things work.

again, thanks!

 

excuse my double-dipping here, but you miss critical points - one: obviously my inquiry seeks out artificially introduced tarnishing that would be indistinguishable from *natural* tarnishing, and to the extent that *might* be possible you would be wrong to consider that environmental damage. if you would consider that damaged please describe to me damage you cannot in any way detect. two: there's a market for lower grade coins, even if i handle it to introduce wear, but no one wants a cleaned coin. in any case, even an environmentally damaged coin wins out over a cleaned one.

although i'd just as soon submit it to a grading service that does not rule out cleaned coins.

so the theoretical alternatives you provide, from "cleaned" to "enviromental damage" just don't apply in the real world where i've got an isabella quarter i picked up for $350 many years ago and i'd like to turn it over and pay rent.

 

Put it in your pocket and wear it down a bit with your other change. The coin will lose some detail and probably drop a grade or two, but after a while it will appear uncleaned.

 

This is the only way to "unclean" a coin. You must let the damaged layers rub away with time. Even then, the coin may still show evidence of cleaning.

The best thing to do with a cleaned coin is to sell it as cleaned and buy a non-cleaned example to replace it.

 

Actually, silver on the surface will immediately oxidize. The "tarnish" on silver is due to exposure to hydrogen sulfide in the air. It has nothing to do with oxygen.

 

Very interesting thread, because I am prone to cleaning my non-prime coins and in some cases have ended up with results that really looked "cleaned". I have followed the practice of carrying them in a pocket for some time to reverse the "cleaning" process. Don't know if that would fool an expert, however, and expert would never buy some of the coins I am talking about. The ethics problem does raise it's ugly head concerning whether to reveal the cleaning or not. When it gets to a point of paying the rent, this is a point I have faced before but never had the coinage to get me through it. One thing that occurs to me is to put the coin on e-bay saying that it possibly is cleaned - the only person who could be 100% certain that it was cleaned would be the cleaner - and see what the market is. You can put a minimum price on it so that you would not lose it for a song, and still be ethically sound.

 

I can be 100% certain that a coin has been cleaned or not by looking at it in hand... just sayin. I always thought that was baloney on EBay "It might have been cleaned or it might not have I don't know".

 

I thought that just as I was typing it. In a court of law, the only thing that you could attest to is that in your expert opinion, the coin was cleaned, unless you were the person that cleaned it.

 

i think the reason i was able to acquire it, already many years ago, for $350, is because it was cleaned. an isabella quarter in lesser condition is more valuable than $350. someone said something about it's being harshly cleaned, but i never said "harshly" - i think the coin presents quite amazingly. i will try to photograph it this weekend to include.

ethics sure figure into this except that if pcgs grades it as ms64 then that's what it is, it only exposes that cleaning (unless "harsh") is not what's at issue here.

meanwhile, i'll try to put a silver dime near some hard boiled crumbled egg yolks and see what the dime looks like after a couple of days but actually don't intend to subject a genuinely potentially valuable coin to such a cheap parlour trick.

-g

 

i sent it out myself and it is possible pcgs indicated that, however i don't recall that language, just that they indicated it was cleaned.

since you are stating that if they returned it due to its being cleaned it would have had that specific reason, i'll telephone them to try to find out if they return any coin that shows any evidence of being cleaned, and if any such evidence demonstrates harshness or abrasiveness.

 

I'll bet they will say "yes", and GDJMSP is correct in his assertions here, IMO.

 

then y'all agree that it is not a matter of scouring or abrasives or marking or stripping, but that the extreme word "harshness" means a coin may be missing its luster due perhaps to a quick dip in baking soda with a piece of aluminum foil to remove tarnish? that's exactly what i think a secondary tarnish might cover-up, and, ethically ... i don't feel conflicted about it - if i can pull it off. but i'll consider putting it into a mini cloth bag and carrying it around for a few weeks. that should satisfy my most ethical critics!

 

That says a lot about your character. I will steer clear of any coins you may offer for sale here. Thanks for the warning.

 

Once it is cleaned it normally stays that way even pocket wear normally will not erase that fact to a professional grader. Too many lines running in the same pattern still show even when wear or toning is added. And yes there are some coins that have been cleaned and toned over in holders but not normally special issues more on the Capped bust and Draped bust type coins.

And IMO toning a coin to hide flaws in order to make money on a sale is one of the accepted terms applied to "Coin Doctors" and is not acceptable practice.

 

a few things - i located the coin in question and it is not as pristine as i remembered. also, obviously, i'm not expert at this. i do see the surfaces are less than ideal so perhaps pcgs is right. i'm not looking to dupe anyone but i kind of think pcgs is on one hand a bit of a racket where they exercise decisive opinion on what's acceptable, and thus, on the other hand, coins like this particular one probably pass through their hands multiple times by idiots like me hoping it will be graded. but you can see on this, despite the harshly treated spaces, the detail's really nice, what a waste! how would you go about selling this marred beauty? meanwhile i've got a coin to show y'all on another thread, not for sale though!