Recently purchased a Claudius As with bronze disease :(

A week ago, I purchased a Claudius As on eBay to add to my 12 Caesars collection. When I finally opened the package, I noticed that the plastic flip is smeared with green powder that is flaking off the coin, a telltale sign of bronze disease.

The seller I bought the coin from is garya138fs.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/255286983662

Here is his eBay description:

“Roman Imperial AE AS of Claudius, 41-54 AD, Sear 1860, R.I.C. 113, 11.4 gms., 29 mm diameter. The obverse shows Claudius, bare head to the left. The obverse legend is "TI. CLAVDIVS CAESAR AVG. P.M. TR.P. IMP. P.P.". The reverse shows the legend "LIBERTAS AVGVSTA", with Libertas standing facing, with pileus, extending left hand. The obverse is a dark brown color overall, but shows a small brighter copper color on the cheek from a small loss of metal, and a contact mark that is noticeable where the hair meets the forehead, above the eye. The reverse is also mostly dark brown in color with a few specks of verdigris scattered, and a lighter color showing down the lower part of the figure of Libertas”

His description is accurate for the most part but he didn’t mention anything about bronze disease. Most of the stable, hard green deposits are on the reverse but the bronze disease is attacking the obverse.



As you can see, there are spots of bronze disease on Claudius’s neck, forehead, and above the legends “CAESAR.”

For comparison, signs of the bronze disease isn’t visible on the seller’s pics:







I wonder if the bronze disease formed just after he shipped me the coin or if his pics deliberately hid evidence of the bronze disease

Too bad I can’t return this item. I most likely won’t ever buy bronze coins on eBay in the future.

 

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Ugly situation.
I don't use Ebay and I don't know the seller, but I am not 100% he deceived you on purpose.
Few years ago, I bought some cheap ancient coins (I wasn't actively collecting ancients), they looked problem free, I placed them in an album and checked them after a year or so. BD was developing massively.
So I am not sure if he deliberately altered the photos or the BD became visible again after he shipped the coin (I think the coin was treated in the past).

Here is a solution that worked
https://www.cointalk.com/threads/valerian-saved-from-bronze-disease.290946/

Especially on the Vespasian coin mentioned.

I try to avoid coins with BD. Bought one few months ago, and when checking it with the magnifying glass, it had a SMALL spot. I wasn't happy as I know it can spread. It was very superficial, and knowing that BD doesn't like heat, I grabbed the coin with some wooden tongs and lit a few matches on the BD spot. Checked it months later (and just checked it now), it did not reappear. But I think this was a non standard solution since the problem was very small.

 

He deceived you in a way because he made his pictures dark which muted the green color of the “BD.” I am not sure if the BD will keep going, but it is a distraction. The Caligula AS in my collection is similarly affected, but it has been cleaned and stripped, and the BD appears to have arrested.

The coin is a mess, but the portrait and lettering are bold. And given the high prices for the Caligula denarii, it fills the hole.

On a U.S. coin, this would be a disaster. The coin would be highly undesirable. That does not seem to be true for ancient bronze, but I honestly don’t know what’s good and what’s bad in the ancient bronze coin field. That’s why I generally avoid buying the big bronze coins and stick to silver. For debased coins of the third century and later, I am fussy about the color and surfaces and have stayed away from green colored coins for the most part.

 

I had a coin last year that developed a breakout of bronze disease in transit to me from the seller which wasn't immediately obvious but became more and more obvious over a few days. Thankfully he is a good ebay seller and I returned the item to him.

He told me in correspondence that it was part of a large lot of coins he purchased at auction and all of them on resale had had similar breakouts of bronze disease exactly as I described it. I followed his store and kept a watch to see if the coin would reappear after treatment. Lo and behold, last month the coin reappeared after his treatment, without too much damage, just some loss of silvering and some visible bare metal in spots, and I repurchased it from him for about 1/5th of the original price. It is now sitting in a flip on my desk under close observation for a good few months before joining the rest of my coins.

You say you can't return the coin. Why? Have you asked the seller, and if he refuses, contacted Paypal or whatever company you made the payment with? If no bronze disease is present in the seller's images and nothing mentioned in the description, it is not as described and so you should get a refund.

 

I buy most of my coins on eBay, and I do get bronze disease from time to time, almost never mentioned in the description. My hunch is seller's don't recognize it.

Any green (or white) spots I see in an auction gives me pause, but a lot of the green is hard non-bronze disease areas of ancient coin gunk (not powdery).

Speaking of 12 Caesars (and kin), here is a recent Agrippina, Sr. sestertius (issued by Claudius) that I got really cheap in an eBay lot. It is very mottled with a bunch of different patinas, crud, etc. The area on the obverse before the portrait's chin and under her bust seems to be the only BD I can see for sure (there may be more under the surfaces). I picked much of it away and have been soaking it in distilled water (other treatments I tried are too complex for me - and leave the coin looking worse than before I treated it).



Thanks to this post, I just remembered to check it again and picked off some more powdering gunk, found some more on the far left (behind the pigtail). It's looking better, but I put it back in distilled water for another soak. We'll see.

Not sure what it is about Claudius and BD, but here is another sestertius with the NCARP countermark. This was another eBay cheapie. I had it for a year or so before I noticed what looked like BD on the reverse. Oh yeah, that's what it was - it was the creeping kind that works beneath the patina. When I started scraping, an alarming area of patina came with it. But it seems stable now, and the devastation missed the countermark:

Before:


After (the overall color didn't change; my photography skills are poor and the sun was probably lower in the heavens). I'm keeping an eye on it - my guess is some BD still lurks under the surfaces, maybe everywhere:



Am I unhappy about this? Not really - when buying low-grade stuff on eBay I expect poor or non-existent descriptions, often from inexperienced dealers, or coin guys who do not usually sell ancients. Now if I were buying from a Vcoins dealer or a big auction house, I'd expect more due diligence from the seller. But with eBay, caveat emptor and (sometimes) low, low prices!

 

This is why I'm always paranoid about buying bronze coins, I get some that are probably green patina but look like BD and I freak out.

If its on eBay I'm sure you can force the return and just say the coin doesn't match the description or photos. Whether or not the seller knew or not is a mystery but this is a mechanic of eBay that people can use (and abuse sometimes) to force returns.

 

I also hate when vcoins dealers don't mention it. Sometimes it'll be mentioned as "corrosion" and sometimes not at all. One can steer away from the obvious BD ones, but I lost out on a relatively high grade Heraclius because I wasn't sure if it was BD. The seller never got back to me and the coin was quickly sold.

 

I wonder if baking would have worked better on the Claudius? When I had a bD outbreak in the 90s, and didn't have access to better info, it at least stopped the active bd.

 

I've tried baking and it did work, but the coin looked horrible afterwards - a dry, light, mottled surface that looked worse than the BD.

Although "saved" by baking worked for me, I seem to be having better luck with the soakin' and pickin' method since the overall appearance of the coin doesn't get degraded. But I am very new at this, so I'm not sure about in the long term.

Baking might be the best method for that creeping BD under the patina as seen on my countermark. If it comes back, I'll get out the cookie sheet again! Thanks for the suggestion.

 

Yeah, if this was a US coin it would be bodybagged and not even given a “details grade” slab

 

The reason why I’m hesitant about buying bronze coins is that the disease isn’t evident on the seller’s pics. You only notice the bronze disease once you got the coin in hand.

 

Here’s the seller’s response:

 

How upsetting! I think the photo posted on eBay was processed through Photoshop.

If you cannot return the coin, all is not lost. The areas of BD seem small. The other green patches seem hard, based on the photos, so there's no active corrosion going on in those places.

I would take an incremental approach with this coin and soak it in distilled water for several days, inspecting it from time to time to see if the powdery area is clearing up. Try using a toothpick to loosen the powder. Be patient. It might take a change or two of distilled water. If it is turning green that means it is working.

Take the coin out after that period, rinse it in distilled water. Some collectors recommend heating the coin to remove any residual moisture. I don't do that since I live in a pretty dry climate, but it is an option. Keep the coin out and observe it for the next few months.

If the powdery residue reappears, then you might have to resort to washing soda (sodium sesquicarbonate). I add it to heated distilled water to a assure that it completely dissolves. Put the coin in the bath and follow the same procedure, with at least one daily inspection. You don't want to keep the coin in this bath for longer than needed, since the washing soda removes patina and BD, so don't keep the coin in the bath too long. Again, wash it with distilled water, dry it and observe it for again several months. Don't store the coin in a flip or envelope during this period.

 

If the BD reappears, you might want to try a longer distilled water soak before resorting the the washing soda. I think of the washing soda as the last resort. It is quite effective, but as I noted there is a downside using it.

Those small areas BD should stabilize with the distilled water. I have one ancient bronze that had really serious and persistent BD. It required extensive soaking in washing soda and distilled water. It shows no signs of BD now, but it was at a cost.



That flat rectangular pit on the reverse is where the BD was concentrated. The pit itself is a lamination, where the metal, due to a structural flaw, separated from the flan either at the mint during striking or in circulation. That depression apparently attracted moisture and oxide deposits over centuries of burial, allowing the chemical process of BD to develop. When I received the coin the BD was not apparent. It seems that the coin was cleaned and possibly had the surfaces sealed - I am not sure. But it did not take long for the BD to appear.

 

Those spots are really minor bronze disease. A little tap with a toothpick and a soak in distilled water and you’re good to go. You could also put a drop of Verdicare on it and call it a day.

Alternatively, you could just ignore it. It’s not like the coin is going dissolve in your lifetime. I have some Ptolemy bronzes that were underwater finds and exhibited rather extensive bd. I used to treat them and it would slowly return after a few years. As an experiment, for the past decade or so I have been doing watchful waiting on one of the specimens. Nothing significant has changed in that time. I suspect the coin will look essentially the same a century from now as long as it remains in the holder.

 

Your item is "NOT AS DESCRIBED" Per eBay regulations, you have a right to return the coin for a refund regardless of the seller's previous statements. It is the seller's responsibility to describe the condition of the item. Obviously, the problems with the coin were not completely visible in the photographs.

If you want to return the coin open a claim on eBay stipulating the item is "Not As Described." Then follow the steps to return the coin.

If you want to keep the coin you can probably work out a significant discount from the seller. Most sellers will allow you to do this.

Trust me on this. I have been selling on eBay since 1998 and I always allow buyers to return items they are not satisfied with. You have a valid claim and eBay will support you. However, you must follow the return procedure precisely as a method and time limits are specified.

 

If my coin only needs a single soak in distilled water, how long should that soak be?

 

If you try to cure it, your right to return may be canceled, in that the coin would not be as the same condition as received.

 

If you decide to keep the coin, take the incremental approach. Based on the photo the BD seems to be in small spots. Soak the coin in distilled water and, using a wood toothpick, dislodge the BD as the water softens it. This might take several days. Remove the coin, dry it, and put it in a spot were you can keep an eye on it. If the BD reappears, repeat the process. There will be pits where the BD was present, but for your coin it doesn't seem to be too invasive.

After the BD seems to be gone, keep the coin out for further observation, say for another month or two at least. If you live in a humid area, heating the coin in the oven at a low temperature (200 degree) to remove any excess moisture after the last soak might be worthwhile. If the coin, after a few months, appears to be BD-free, then you might consider sealing the surfaces Verdicare or Renwax. This is optional. I've done this with only a few of my ancients.

But the fundamental question that you need to address before you undertake the treatment is whether you want to keep the coin or return it. Will you be happy owning the coin after treatment or would it be better to return it and search for another one? Remember, there will be other opportunities to acquire one, perhaps without the issue of BD. That's the question that you need to answer.