Hi everyone..., I have recently obtained 2 coins that at first I thought are Dutch lion daalders, but then I discovered there are no such pieces listed in the Netherlands section... Finally, I found out that the 2 pieces are Italian tallero leone Dutch type from 16-17th century. Both have MAS and MASS words in their abbreviation so one of them is for sure MASSA di LUNIGIANA and the other with the shorter MAS abbreviation is either MASSA di LOMBARDA or MASSA CARRARA or MASSA di LUNIGIANA, but I just can't find any reference on these. I saw similar Messerano leone tallero sell for many thousand dollars, as well as a MASSA LOMBARDA Franciscus type and MASSA di LUNIGIANA tallero and these were very expensive too... Is it possible that anyone helps me out with proper identification of the 2 pieces and a rough idea of their market value? Please, note that my scanner is very bad and does not bring out details, but I'm sure you will get the needed information. I want to thank you in advance for your help. Sincerely. Vic.
The first one is a Tallero of Massa di Lunigiana minted under Carlo I Cybo (1623-1662). Reference : A3973 `European Crowns 1600-1700' by John S.Davenport. The obverse legends read `Car Cybo Mal - Mass Pri II' Reverse `Fortitudo Mea Dom Sol LXXX' The second one looks to me to be a plain jane Netherlands Utrecht Lion Daalder dated 1679 (?) The first is certainly not readily found but sadly, it is in very poor condition. I could not in all honesty place a value on it. There may be specialist collectors out there gasping at the chance to own one of these, I just don't know. The second is in equally poor condition and I think the value would be pretty low. Ian
Thanks Ian, That was of real help regarding 1st one... I've just found out the same Massa di Lunigiana piece auctioned today at the Swiss Numismatica Ars Classica and they state there are less than 5 pieces known... Also the quality of theirs is just slightly better than mine and they described it as XF for such rare coin... Anyhow, it needs more research. Regarding 2nd piece the last word ends on AS and there is a very faint letter before it that that looks like an M and is 100% not Utrecht as the Utrecht pieces start with TRA... Both coins came from same place, so I'm keen on thinking its also a later 1679 Massa di Lunigiana tallero, but then again I'm not completely sure. Thanks again. Vic.
It may very well be rare, but it sure as heck isn't XF by any stretch of the imagination. Rarity and grade are not synonymous. Even with a population of five, if they are worn down to being almost washer-like in condition then that's what their condition is. No point in saying `XF' when it isn't. Still, who am I to argue with the grading `experts'. I make it well below VG, (even if the rather obvious pvc damage was removed). Krause Mischler lists A3973 (as KM18) with a value of $125 in `good'. Your one is in that range (IMHO). The legends are (IMHO) nothing like those for Massa de Lunigiano. They are however like those for Utrecht in the United Netherlands. I haven't come across any reference for a similar coin having been struck under Alberico II Cybo Malaspina (1662-1690). Your coin dated 1679 should at least have his name in the legends if it was from MdiL. It doesn't (unless i'm reading them wrong). To help point your attention elsewhere in relation to that coin, apparently the last coinage produced for MdiL was 1667. By the way, the LXXX in the first legend stands for 80 Bolognini (or so i believe). Ian
Thanks again Ian, I'm certainly out of the idea about arguing with you... I'm also not sure why Krause lists this one at $125 while other auctions sell it for CHF4000... You can check Lot. No.44 from today's Zurich Numismatica Ars Classica Auction at: http://www.sixbid.com/home/auctions/nac/nac32/nac32.htm If Krause sells them for $125 a piece I would line up with enough money to fill a crate of those... Anyhow, I'm completely grateful for the time you took to answer my nagging comments. Thanks again. Vic.
Krause of course doesn't sell anything other than its coin catalogues. It is merely the standard reference for world coinage, and normally the first source I turn to for coin ID. This time I tried Bachtell first (unsuccessfully), then Davenport (successfully), then later I thought `I wonder if Krause has it listed after all?' ...and it did. The example coin shown in both Davenport and Krause are significantly higher grade than your one, which is one of the reasons I am just a wee bit sceptical about the claim that there is only a known population of 5 of these. Krause catalogue pricing estimates are (I believe) based upon data obtained from dealers and auction houses worldwide. They have been known to get things wrong in the past, and this may be one of those occasions. However, Frank Drascovik's `The Standard Price Guide to World Crowns and Talers' gives a value of $1,250 for the coin in VF condition. From my limited experience of his prices, he tends to be way over the top. He also provides an image of a coin in about VF condition. Grading is of course `subjective' but to my eye yours would definitely be no better than `good' in comparison and as such KM's catalogue value seems reasonable to me. Of course, the real test is putting it up for sale. I doubt if you would find your market outside of specialist auction houses, speaking of which, thanks for the auction link. I'll have a look at it later this evening. Best of luck with any future planned disposal of said item(s). Ian
