Questions on Clashed Dies

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by davidh, Jan 15, 2009.

  1. huntsman53

    huntsman53 Supporter**


    Toad,

    First off, I know that you meant nothing by it but I am 55 years old and no one except my Mom and Dad have called me Frankie since I joined the U.S. Army at the age of 19 and both have since passed!

    Second, I was not disputing the point that Die Clashes are errors because in reality that is what they are! I was just pointing out that how that as a Die Clash becomes more severe due to the continued slamming of the Dies into each other, the Clashing becomes more severe and if it hasn't already, it can progess beyond mere clashing of details to details and lettering. Once the lettering is clashed and becomes visible on struck coins, then experts many times gives this a Variety designation. The most notable of these are certain Morgan and Peace Dollar VAM's but there are others.


    Frank
     
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  3. HandsomeToad

    HandsomeToad Urinist

    If that is the case, then there isn't symetry in the numismatic world and that doesn't sound right. I know that with copper cents, we have varieties and then sub-categories known as die states. The variety never changes because of clashed dies, it just becomes a state of the original die that created the variety in the first place. :) I don't understand why it isn't that way throughout our numismatic world but if it is, otay! :D

    Ribbit :)
     
  4. ldhair

    ldhair Clean Supporter

    Just to add some more confusion. What would multi-denominational clashes be called?
     
  5. bhp3rd

    bhp3rd Die varieties, Gems

    A clash can become a variety and a varity become a clash.

    A clash is a error and, doubled dies, RPM's, etc. are varieties. Mostly!!
    The reason a clash is a error is because it is a malfunction of the coining equipment. Something went wrong and it was a error in production or damaged materials.
    A variety is not a malfunction of equipment or damaged materials - it is a human error in the production of the coining equipments finished product.
    An error is something the mint will not let continue and a variety oftentimes will be continued. The 1955 doubled die DDO-001 was let out, (20,000 of them) even though the die was caught.
    An error is a reason to stop or repair the coining equipment because something is wrong. A variety can be continued often being overlooked or deemed not that serious.
    A variety is traceable to one die, hubb, or dressing of one die or hubb.
    A error is breakdown of the coining process or materials.
    A variety is the finished minted coin with the same type of doubling (variety) attributed to one working die or hubb.
    It is a varieity because all the coins that the die produces are almost exactly the same albeit for die state of those coins and or reverses.
    When I tell another die variety specialist I have a 1876-CC Dime DDO-001 with the first, second or third reverse die he knows exactly what coin I am speaking about - even after 140 years.
    Error coins are almost never attributed to one die and especially not to different reverse die changes.
    Variety coins are always attributed to one die, (or hubb) and we can trace the different reverse dies used with that particular obverse die.

    Now to get even more complicated:
    A variety can become an error and an error become a variety.
    Sometimes, (1971 Lincoln & 2000-P Lincoln) a coin is first thought to be a doubled die (variety) and with more research it is later is determined to be a damaged die or a from of mechanical doubling, (error) or clash. It then must revert back to being an error coin at that point.
    Sometimes, (in the case of Morgan Dollars and other 19th century coins) a clash become a variety. Reason, the clash shows up on all the same mint & dated dollars, the coin is highly sort after, in demand, is hard to find on a very popular series the error then becomes a variety, still traceable to one die or hubb.
    With that said, yes you could trace some errors in die procession (die state) but the task would eventually be impossible and not very reliable as the subject die will eventually be destroyed by the coining process itself.
    A variety die will usually not be destroyed (at least during coining) but will continue to keep working just as it was intended till it is retired or discovered. With an error die that is broken you will have to replace it.

    I hope this helps you'all - I sure did work hard on it.
    Ben Peter
    "the truest statement I know of, to all questions is the answer, it depends?"
     
  6. Hobo

    Hobo Squirrel Hater

    I have one of these. It is the 1857 Flying Eagle Cent where the obverse die clashed with a Liberty Half Dollar obverse die. It is listed in the Cherrypicker's Guide.

    I don't know that it has a formal name but you could call it a "mule clash" or something similar.
     
  7. bhp3rd

    bhp3rd Die varieties, Gems

    Its called,

    It's called a cent clashed with another denomination or it's FS# is good enough because most all of us know of it, very rare for most any date or time but this one is around and often availible.
    Ben
     
  8. HandsomeToad

    HandsomeToad Urinist

    Hey Ben! :) That doesn't jive with Early Coppers so I guess there isn't symmetry in the numismatic world? :( I thought there would be no difference in terminology of a penny to a dollar but I guess I was wrong. :(

    In coppers, once the die is made, it's a variety with subcategories of die states until such time as either side is paired with a different die or it's tossed out. The 1801 S-215 DBC is a great example. The dies apparently clashed early on and were eventually tossed. No matter what die state you get, it's a S-215 and the clashing of the dies didn't change that. There are other varieties with DBC's that are identical and the variety didn't change because the dies clashed.

    One of the most clashed die series, has to be the Fugios and even they don't change variety when the dies clashed. So why does it change variety with other coins? I think the simple answer is - the other coins don't actually have true varieties, like the early coppers do and it's just a way to categorize them, so they are NOT true varieties and the term is being used loosely!

    Ribbit :)
     
  9. jazzcoins

    jazzcoins New Member

    No matter what, a die clash is considered a major error in the error world . Error coins are put into seperate cataglorys minor or major errors just like varieties are. The die clash is considered a major error ,off center strikes are major errors ,greased filled die a minor error ,die polished a minor error just some examples.

    Jazzcoins Joe


    Jazz
     
  10. HandsomeToad

    HandsomeToad Urinist

    I wouldn't argue that. ;) It is an error of sorts, just like machine doubling is an error. :D But on old coppers, die clashes create a die state and aren't called errors, even though they can be called an error. :) But a die clash does not create a new variety, at least, not with old coppers. ;)

    Ribbit :goofer:
     
  11. ldhair

    ldhair Clean Supporter

    It's interesting to note that Cherrypickers considers Multi- denominational clashes as varieties.
     
  12. 900fine

    900fine doggone it people like me

    I suppose it's semantics, really. IMHO, a die clash is not an error, not a variety. It is a die state, and useful for determining emmision sequences and die remarriages.

    In general, it does not decrease value. But then again, if someone likes 'em it might help a sale. If folks don't like 'em it's a hinderance.

    I think they're interesting and instructive.

    They shouldn't affect grade.
     
    okbustchaser likes this.
  13. Conder101

    Conder101 Numismatist

    That was a mistake on Van Allen and Mallis's part. They gave them variety numbers when they shouldn't have. Later they came to realize this and Van Allen will no longer give a die clash a variety designation, but they will indicate them as a die stage of an existing variety. Since the previous ones were already in the book they were not delisted.

    That's silly and I think it's unlikely. A die clash just represents a particular stage in the life of a die. If the die is used and the clash fades, or if it is repolished and the clashmarks are removed it the error goes away? Gradually?
     
  14. jazzcoins

    jazzcoins New Member


    I could understand why some would but them in a class of a variety. if you do want to get technical.

    I have two 2000 Roservelt dimes that are die clashes one has more incused images notice on the reverse of the obverse then the other.. One of them has some incused letters of liberty LIB were the other one has nothing of the sort except parts of the outline of the neck area ( A DIFFERENT VARETY I Would SAY IF YOU WANT TO BE TECHNICAL ) I don't think all experts look at them as varieties you would think that would be the correct terminolgy, what I explained with the two rosies I have . TWO DIFFERENT VARIETIES.

    Definition of die varities
    A die variety is any variation in the normal design of a given coin, caused by errors in the preparation or maintence of the coin dies. Tyypical die varieties include doubled dies, repunched mint marks and dates in the placement or alignment of mintmarks,letters and numbers,devices etc (changes to the die surfaces from over polisheng of die clashes )_ ,and NUMBER OF OTHER MINOR VARIETIES IN THE FINALE STRIKE OF THE COIN

    One must be very careful not to confuse die varieties with error coins which have varieties in there appearance as a result of the manufacturing process itself, such as off center strikes,wrong planshets types,planchet preparation mistakes etc


    I do understand what Conder means it does make more sense ,but I think the proper terminolgy would be varities instead of any other terminolgy used including errors.just my opinon on that ,and I would say this subject is a matter of opinion.

    Jazzcoins Joe
     
  15. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    It is purely a matter of opinion. The argument about what constitutes an error and what constitutes a variety has been going on for longer than any of us have been alive and will continue long after we are all gone.
     
  16. Conder101

    Conder101 Numismatist

    Jazz if your two Roosevelts are the result of two DIFFERENT clashed dies, then they are two different varieties. But the variety status comes from the die pairings used not from the clash. If they both come from the same die pair then you have two different die stages of the same variety.
     
  17. davidh

    davidh soloist gnomic

    I was just looking at this Three Cent and realized that, not only is there the major die clash but there is a 177-degree CCW die obverse die rotation as well.

    In a normal coin of this type, the bow on the reverse would be opposite the top of Liberty's head on the obverse.

    As you can see, the portrait clash impression on the reverse has the chin at the top and the forehead at the bottom. This would put the date opposite the bow on the reverse which is the opposite end of where it should be.

    As it happens, the center of the bow is opposite the last digit of the date, about 177 degrees off.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  18. John Dunkle

    John Dunkle New Member

    I have a 2009 proof Jefferson nickle that i flund in one of 4 proof sets i bought in 2009 from the mint. This one is clash died in several places so i have had it certified with the ANACS. They call it extreme clashing. The most prominate clash is that both of Jeffersons eyes can be seen under the Jefferson memorial. One eye above the first o and the other above and between the i and c. There are too many to list them all. My question is, has anyone else found one like it or is it unique and one of a kind? I really hope there are more of them so that a value can be assigned. Any help would be appreciated.
     
  19. ldhair

    ldhair Clean Supporter

    Hi John and welcome to CT.
    I don't know if I have ever seen a proof coin that's clashed. Sounds interesting.
    More folks will see your post if you start a new thread. This thread is over 10 years old and not many will see it. A new thread with images would be really cool.
    Hope you enjoy it here at CT. It's a lot of fun.
     
  20. Simplycoins101

    Simplycoins101 New Member

    I'm curious if this 1924 Mercury dime isn't a capped die clash or a strike thru error. This is one that has me stumped.
     

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  21. Cheech9712

    Cheech9712 Every thing is a guess

    Can’t see your pictures
     
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