I am looking into pre-yen Japanese coins. Specifically, the ones I can afford, which automatically limits me to the four rectangular precious metal denominations: 1 shu (silver), 1 bu (silver), 2 shu (gold), and 2 bu (gold). The ones that are most common do not have any reign markings. However, I have done research and now can figure out through different characteristics which reigns the shu, bu, and 2 shu come from. So, my question is this: what is the difference between the Man'en 2 bu and Meiji 2 bu? Every one I have seen looks the same. The weight is the same too. Their gold purity is different, but I don't have a way to test that. Also, Krause lists two different Paulownia leaf types for the Man'en 2 bu. What are they? Thanks in advance for your help.
Welcome to the world of collecting Japanese coins! One of the better sources for Japanese coins is the catalog published by the Japan Numismatic Dealers Association (JNDA). The 2019 catalog in Japan costs yen 1,500 (about $15). Certain U.S. dealers may also have copies to sell. As for your specific questions the Man'en period was very short beginning in March 1860 and ending in February 1861. The Meiji Restoration occurred in 1868 but the reformed coinage was not issued until 1870 (5 sen and gold 5 yen only). In the interim, you had the Meiji government using the old Oban, koban and bu denominations. The difference between a Man'en 2 bu (JNDA ref. 09-28 ) and Meiji 2 Bu (JNDA ref. 09-29) would be gold purity as you stated and the dating in kanji - the Chinese characters. Both coins weigh 3.00 grams. The two different Paulownia leafs refer to the markings denoting the Meiji period or the shortened Man'en period. Prior to the Man'en period you had Ansei and some of those coins will be nearly identical to the Man'en. I hope I haven't confused you too much. If you can read Chinese or Japanese, discerning which coin is which may be easier.
This is also a good book: Early Japanese Coins by David Hartill. Very useful. https://www.amazon.com/Early-Japane...oins&qid=1557869047&s=gateway&sr=8-1-fkmrnull and here is the first link to a JNDA I found on eBay. Mostly in Japanese, but it is still very useful. https://www.ebay.com/itm/2019-The-C...499983?hash=item4d9348becf:g:KqsAAOSw29Jb4~5S I suppose someday I should see what Krause has to say, I've honestly never paid it much attention when it comes to Japanese coins, well not in the last 15 years or so anyway. The pre-modern era is not my most familiar, but I do keep looking more at them. In any case you might also find some of the mameita gin (bean money) and cho-gin affordable too.
Thank you both for your help! I do have a few Japanese cash coins, including the 10 mon from 1708. I only use Krause, despite it not being the best reference for this kind of thing. Their listings were what interested me in it in the first place. Do you have any pictures to help with telling the difference? I haven’t been able to find any for the 2 bu.
However, some information that I found through some serious searching was the dates for the 1 bu. This chart from ikigari.com helped a lot. A Meiji 1 bu isn’t even listed in Krause!
The chart above is also in the Hartill book mentioned earlier, along with a lot of other charts and information. For pre-modern Japanese coins, there really isn't another book besides Hartill's that's worth the effort right now. Another way to enhance collecting Japanese coins is to learn Japanese. ちょっと日本語を話します、でも日本のコインがとても好きです。 It's a long difficult road but facsinating and rewarding. Unfortunately, many Kanji on pre-modern Japanese coins are now considered archaic, so learning all of those characters, which at times numbered in the thousands, would be more than I would ever care to take on. But coins would provide a decent limited context to deal with archaic Kanji. So that could actually work out.
So by early Japanese coins, Hartill is referring every type up to the introduction of round coinage in 1870? In that case I definitely need that book. I assumed that the term “early” meant from the first twelve to around 1500. And as for learning Japanese, that’ll be a long way away. I like my Latin.
Basically. "Modern" refers to anything from the Meiji reformation on, coins dated 1870 (excepting rare patterns from earlier). Minting machinery was obtained (IIRC) from Hong Kong and modern/Western/round coinage and standardized denominations were instituted. "Current" refers to anything minted under the auspices of the current government ie. since the current constitution was created in the aftermath of WWII. Some of the 'current' coins are obsolete and no longer circulate. Early just means prior to Modern, but Modern is not how the typical US coin collector looks at it. This website is a work in progress, but perhaps can explain a bit: http://www.starcityhomer.com/japan--general.html http://www.starcityhomer.com/reading-japanese-coins.html There is nothing useful there for the pre-modern coins, but perhaps the background information is useful. And, for the JNDA, using your cellphone and the google translate app can occasionally be helpful.
I did write a long-ish review of Hartill's book on Amazon, which does go into some detail, but if you even have a smidgen of interest in early Japanese coinage, it's really the only book to buy. I read it cover to cover and I highly recommend it. Hartill's book runs from the Nara period (8th century) to the mid-19th century as some so-called "early" coins actually overlapped with the Meiji period. One major, and possibly artificial, distinction between "early" and "modern" Japanese coins is that some consider "early" as cast coins and "modern" as minted coins. This doesn't always provide a perfect distinction, but it usually works. It also explains why some Meiji-era coins fall under the "early" category. Harill's book deals almost exclusively with cast coins. It even describes how they were made. It's fascinating throughout.
Ed Womack: I will have to look into David Hartill's book. The one book I have used which I found rummaging through a bookstore in Los Angeles was "Coins of Japan" written by Neil Gordon Munro. It was published in Yokohama in 1904 by the Box of Curios Printing and Publishing Company! It has many lithographs. It is an excellent reference book.
Japanese coin prices have slowly been creeping up - there are a few that I missed big time. In particular I should have got my hands on koban and chogin. Oban is one of those dream items... Something that is really affordable and interesting is 'mameita gin', which is essentially a silver bean. Not very well studied and room for a lot of varieties. My personal favorite from the pre Meiji era is this Akita prefecture 'gin ban' which is essentially a silver oval coin. This if you have the patience is somewhat doable but rarely appear in the market due to it's highly popularity.
Hartill's book was meant to be a long overdue update of the Munro book. In his book, Hartill claims that Munro's book has some things in it that are now considered inaccurate and outdated. Also, if you happened to pick up an original Munro book from 1904, you bought a collectible, they sell for a decent amount these days. Reprints also exist.
The plates in a Munro are really neat. The reading style is...dense. If you buy an OCR reprint it's also difficult too just from a stylistic point of view. @Sullykerry2 For the pretty low cost (less than $20 on Amazon) the Hartill book is pretty low risk. I can send you a copy to look at if you'd like to look at one first though. I have a spare for when I'd temporarily misplaced one.
Could someone please help me identify this coin. I think it is Chinese or Japanese. It has similar symbols to other coins but it has markings on the back that I can’t match.
Your coin is actually Vietnamese, from the reign of Thàn Thái (1888-1907). It’s 10 van. It’s also listed here.
Hi all, sorry I'm late to this thread. I have a few thoughts. 1. Hartill's book is the best in English on pre-milled Japanese. Munro's is great for background information (which Hartill is scant on). Hartill's number ends up on my tags because it is the standard English language work. I usually put var. after any minor viariety not listed in Hartill. i.e. H-4.100(var) then the Japanese reference to the exact coin. Standard numbering systems make things easier. 2. Hartill's listings, especially in the Bita sen section are seriously abridged to the point of not being useful. Find a copy of the Honpo Bitsen Zupu. 3. Hartill has errors in the New Kanei section. Not going to get into what they are here, but there are errors in the variety names, and variety indicators but his finding guide is really good. Also he doesn't have any metric data (Size/weight for mother and circulation coins) - which is extremely useful sometimes. He also skips a lot of fairly major varieties in common series such as the yottsuho sen and fukyu groups. Find a copy of Ogawa Yoshinori "Catalog of Japanese Coins Shin Kanei Tsuho" (hard to find), or the Shin Kanei Tsuho Nobu, it's in its 3rd edition and still easy to find. I like Ogawa better, it's easier to use. You also hear about Kudo Yuji's book, but VERY difficult to find and expensive if found. 3.a. Hartill's rarity scale for the Shin Kanei series is not useful except as a general guide. 3b. The prices for common pre-meiji Japanese coins on ebay and other US sources are way high for the most part. 4. If anyone wants to trade for specific coins, I have lots of doubles in the Kanei series. Let me know the H number and I'll look through my boxes. It would be nice to connect with some other Japanese cast collectors out there.
I'm particularly interested in rectangular pre-Meiji coins, including but not limited to the four common ones mentioned in the first post. Does anyone know of a good reference for them? I have Hartill's book but would really like more background information on them - how they were minted, why, how well they circulated, etc. Hartill is great for varieties and dating, but scant on background info. Maybe a source specifically focused on precious metal coins?
For info on pre-Meiji precious metal coinage in English, the Catalog of the Pre-Meiji Coins in the British Museum and Munro are the best. Any more in depth you need to go to the Japanese publications.
Apparently I found this thread before and forgot about it because I seem to have commented above, but I've since done a lot of research and have a solid answer for the original question of Man'en vs Meiji 2 bu. I went down a rabbit hole a little while back to figure it out, so here we go. First, to distinguish between Man'en and Meiji, look at the bu character. (It's on the left of the side with the flowers) Now look at the top right stroke; if it's straight or curved downward, it's Meiji. If it's curved upwards, it's Man'en. Second, there are actually two styles of Man'en 2 bu (which PCGS differentiates); Ansei style and Meiji style. For those, look at the top flower. Meiji style have a small V at the bottom center, and Ansei style don't. You can look at the top flower on a standard Meiji 2 bu and Ansei 2 bu to compare. Also, a note: Don't trust PCGS on these. A lot of the (very few) that have been graded are misattributed, including some on CoinFacts. If you want visuals, I'm on Instagram with the same username (@unexpected.numismatist) and have a highlight called "Bar Money" - flip through that and you'll find a whole commentary from when I went searching.
